Panasonic just announced update to TM300. New HMC40 soon?

Hah! That's actually an excellent observation, and may be entirely where the firmware optimism comes from!

Traditionally in video or electronics, there isn't any round of "patching" or "updates". You want new features and updates, you buy the new model. Firmware updates are used to fix bugs, and only in incredibly rare exceptions do you get any new features added in a firmware update.

But yes, thanks Jay, that really does help put things into perspective as to why people might be expecting all these new things to be added after the fact...
 
There are hardware/firmware examples too: a lot of functionality has been added to the XBox360 since its release ... and additional manual control arrived for the Canon 5DMkII, to sustained applause!
 
Barry_Green said:
Hah! That's actually an excellent observation, and may be entirely where the firmware optimism comes from!

Traditionally in video or electronics, there isn't any round of "patching" or "updates". You want new features and updates, you buy the new model. Firmware updates are used to fix bugs, and only in incredibly rare exceptions do you get any new features added in a firmware update.

But yes, thanks Jay, that really does help put things into perspective as to why people might be expecting all these new things to be added after the fact...
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Well there is truth in that, but also note that the company that DOES start doing that will earn a look from me and my business.

THe internet age has changed how willing people are to 'settle' for a blue widget when they want a red one, of a 16 ounce one when they want a 18 ounce one. Manufacturers are no longer able to say "take it of leave it" because we can easily look all over the world for one like we want.

So if panasonic could pony up a couple of new features in a firmware update that doesn't quite make for a brand new camera, it could certainly make for happy and probably more loyal customers.

If not and Canon or Sony does it, well, all things being equal, wouldn't you at least have to strongly consider a camera more likely to be improved over one that you knew would always lack that one simple feature that you wanted but wasn't available in your budget?

Obviously, major changes are not practical. You're not going to change the resolution and even getting 60p seems like it might require different hardware. But, some software changes to make it just a little better could really make some happy customers.
 
Barry_Green said:
Traditionally in video or electronics, there isn't any round of "patching" or "updates". You want new features and updates, you buy the new model. Firmware updates are used to fix bugs, and only in incredibly rare exceptions do you get any new features added in a firmware update.
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This great practice has been ruined completely with advent of BD players. Not only the players had - and still have - bugs, but the BD spec itself was in flux and was being updated. And don't get me started about Java and BD-J. I am myself a Java developer, and I'd rather have HD DVD with Microsoft's stuff than this bug-infested slow-as-a-snail Java UI. Seriously, when I pop a disc into my home system I WANT TO WATCH A FREAKING MOVIE. I don't want to wait for two minutes for a stupid animated menu to load. So you have it: spec inconsistency, bugs in the code plus pedestrian Java. BD won over HD DVD only because of massive advertising and pressure on Toshiba, if these two standards were allowed to compete fairly, then HD DVD would win because it was licked out much better. Now you have consumers who download patches monthly because this or that BD disc does not play in their player. Think about it: a manufacturer has to update firmware for a particular disc! It this were the case with DVD, it won't ever catch on. Has anyone updated their VCR?
 
Look at the way Blu-Ray was developed, with the concept of players connecting to the net very much in mind. Okay, maybe it's got some serious issues, but the point is that it was developed with taking advantage of the internet very much in mind.

Eventually, I've got to think it will make a lot of sense economically, to offer "upgrades" via a simple flashing of firmware, available for purchase over the net. Take an upgrade for making an NTSC camcorder capable of shooting PAL formats for example. Given time, why would a manufacturer have customers ship cameras to a service center, when they could simply deliver a firmware upgrade via the net, and charge the customer the same amount of money (cutting expenses dramatically = fatter profits!). Assuming the HMC40 was designed in a way that a firmware upgrade could make the camera capable of recording 1080p60 at a higher bitrate than AVCHD, why not offer it up for like $500 or something? I'm sure Panasonic would pocket a good chunk of dough if they did that (with minimal expenses).
 
v3rlon said:
But, some software changes to make it just a little better could really make some happy customers.
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Of course, and we'd all love that. But it hasn't been part of the business model, and I wouldn't really expect it to be. It goes against the manufacturer's own interest of wanting to sell you a new product. If they update it for you, for free, then ... what incentive do you have to buy the next new one?

That's the way the business works, so to do otherwise, well... I guess if they *charged* for firmware updates that might make business sense, but I think you'd have quite the opposite reaction (furious customers, rather than happy ones) so ... we'll see how it goes, but I don't see any rush on the manufacturer's side to start offering features for free.
 
Robert M Wright said:
Assuming the HMC40 was designed in a way that a firmware upgrade could make the camera capable of recording 1080p60 at a higher bitrate than AVCHD, why not offer it up for like $500 or something? I'm sure Panasonic would pocket a good chunk of dough if they did that (with minimal expenses).
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This means intentionally crippling early models then offering essential "upgrades" for a fee. This approach will completely corrupt the industry. Updates must be for free, does not matter whether they are fixes of improvements.
 
Cranky said:
This means intentionally crippling early models then offering essential "upgrades" for a fee. This approach will completely corrupt the industry. Updates must be for free, does not matter whether they are fixes of improvements.
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It does not have to be an intentional "crippling". Sometimes, if a certain technology is based on a draft standard, it can be reserved via hooks in the firmware and upgraded to the new standard later (for instance, IEEE 802.11n in wi-fi). In such cases, some companies have to (and probably should) charge a fee under GAAP standards for such an upgrade to the firmware. It may not sound fair, but business rarely is. However, in this case, it is probably appropriate.

Just because it is firmware does not mean that there isn't a value-add when it is upgraded. There most certainly is added value for new features, just as if they replaced a ROM chip with a new one that had additional instructions (which any company would certainly charge for if it upgraded the capabilities of a device). It is pretty common for companies to charge for firmware upgrades. We just don't see it too often in certain technology segments.

In this particular case, to achieve 1080p60, would require a different recording technology (Per MacWorld, the new Panasonic camcorders - "At the highest video resolution and frame rate (1920 by 1080 at 60 fps), both camcorders record MPEG-4 video using the H.264 codec at a 28-megabits-per-second bit rate."). This would be a lot different than the recording technology in the firmware, now. If such a capability could be incorporated into the existing firmware, I would guess Panny or anyone else would charge for something like that. If they didn't, I would consider it either a gift from above or "there's got to be a catch". There is no such thing as a free lunch.
 
Okay, I am unofficially confused.

Does the cam shoot 1080/60p to the AVCHD structure?

Because that one be significant, but people seem to disagree on this capability with AVCHD.
 
No, the new Panasonic cameras will shoot 1080/60p as follows, according to MacWorld:

"At the highest video resolution and frame rate (1920 by 1080 at 60 fps), both camcorders record MPEG-4 video using the H.264 codec at a 28-megabits-per-second bit rate. That's higher than the bit rate the AVCHD format supports (24 mbps), which means that the file sizes should be a bit bigger, but the raw footage is compatible with most video editing and playback software. Both camcorders also shoot 1980-by-1080-resolution AVCHD video at lower bit rates: 17 mbps, 13 mbps, 9 mbps, and 5 mbps."
 
David S. said:
Okay, I am unofficially confused.

Does the cam shoot 1080/60p to the AVCHD structure?
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NO.

It shoots 1080/60i to AVCHD. When going into 1080/60p mode, it uses a new recording format, a straight h.264 implementation that records up to 28mbps.

It has two recording formats -- 28mbps h.264 for 1080/60p, and AVCHD for everything else.
 
Barry_Green said:
Of course, and we'd all love that. But it hasn't been part of the business model, and I wouldn't really expect it to be. It goes against the manufacturer's own interest of wanting to sell you a new product. If they update it for you, for free, then ... what incentive do you have to buy the next new one?

That's the way the business works, so to do otherwise, well... I guess if they *charged* for firmware updates that might make business sense, but I think you'd have quite the opposite reaction (furious customers, rather than happy ones) so ... we'll see how it goes, but I don't see any rush on the manufacturer's side to start offering features for free.
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It hasn't bween a part of the business model. That doesn't mean its a bad idea.

Your incentive for buying a new camera:

New hardware - you still can't download a second SDHC slot, a larger CMOS sensor, or more buttons. Maybe the processor in the old camera can't run AVCHD 2.0 of process 1080*1920p60 or p120 or whatever the rage is next year. You still have to upgrade hardware.

Think video cards. Nvidia and AMD/ATI offer improved drivers all the time. Sometimes, we still buy a new card for better performance, or are forced two as hardware requirements grow. And those drive improvements/updates are free.

Side note - couldn't agree more about HD DVD vs Blu-Ray. I've owned both since the beginning, and HD-DVD has been better the whole time. I am still waiting for performance to equal out.
 
David S. said:
Okay, I am unofficially confused. Does the cam shoot 1080/60p to the AVCHD structure?
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No. It records into a "bare" file (no file structure, clipinfo, other crap) similarly to what Canon VDSLRs do. I suppose it is a MOV container, the UK spec page does not have details on that. I guess one can search older Sanyo 1080p60 camera info to find out more.

Does MPEG TS support metadata info, like f-stop, shutter speed, etc? If not, then there is an obvious need for separate clipinfo files. But I think that it does, there are utilities that can show metadata from HDV MPEG TS files. How different TS files are, ones with HDV and other with AVCHD? If I believe it is possible to master a BD disk with original TS files from an HDV camcorder.
 
Seems pretty clear to me from the MacWorld article that it is going to an MPEG-4 type file. I guess I was just assuming it was something similar to what you see on the Mac (such as the *.m4a format).
 
I know, I corrected my statement in the earlier post... I am assuming *.m4v, *.mp4, especially since this was in the context of MacWorld and that the MPEG-4 container used in Apple computers. That may perhaps be a wrong assumption, but it makes sense to me.
 
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consider this...

Panasonic releases a brand new camera next month. It is an HMC40 except
You can save scene files to the card
The Focus ring can be set to meters instead of focus units
gain can be used at any apeture
no more turn the camera off to load a scene file
and I'll even throw in 1080p60 in mp4 file.

Do you go out and spend $2300 to get it? Is the HMC40 a doorstop? MAYBE, MAYBE if you need 108060, but the others are simply not a factor.


Now consider that panasonic updates the firmware to the HMC40 so it manages all those things, but also next year releases the HMC50: It has all of the above and

Dual SDHC slots
new Gen2 3MOS sensors. They are the same size, but more sensitive to light and thus 3 stops faster.
Improved OIS system.
Lens with a little more range at each end.
25% longer battery life
Slight ergonomic imporvements to buttons and so on...


Do you look at THAT camera.

Now suppose that Canon and Panasonic both released a camera like the matches my hypothetical HMC50. The only differences are some aethetics. They are even the same price.

Knowing that Panny did that substantial refresh of the HMC40, which one are you more likely to buy?
 
Barry_Green said:
NO.

It shoots 1080/60i to AVCHD. When going into 1080/60p mode, it uses a new recording format, a straight h.264 implementation that records up to 28mbps.

It has two recording formats -- 28mbps h.264 for 1080/60p, and AVCHD for everything else.
Click to expand...

Now that is significant.

But this will require some transcode to edit . . . . unfortunately
 
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