Well, Apple did keep the expresscard slot on the 17"... That was the main reason for my purchase. Glad I bought it a month before the snow leopard release. Will see how much this new Panasonic reader costs and plan my next step. Second hand P2 Stores sound much more appealing for mac users following this recent development of the "end" of the duel adapter, at least for snow leopard macs...
Panasonic announces Single P2 Reader
- Thread starter RicFic
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
There are still plenty of them available, including several from Lenovo, Fujitsu, and (of course) Panasonic themselves. Yes, they're dwindling, but they're still available right now; you can buy a powerhouse W500 workstation from Lenovo that has both slots.
That's primarily because as a connector, ExpressCard sucks. Plus, the design of the Duel is just goofy. Look at the Addonics, it just seems so much more rational.
You mean like using the camera that you've already bought, which connects to both platforms via USB, that you already have?
They've already got ways to ingest, at a variety of price points.
But seriously, I am absolutely with Jason on this -- what can possibly be the objection to the Lenovo S10e/Addonics combo? People seem interested in that Nexto device, and it costs $2,000. The S10e/Addonics costs $350. Why is it a problem?
No, it's "difficult" to transfer cards to a MAC desktop. On a Windows desktop it's effortless, you buy a $79 reader and you're good to go. I've never heard a reasonable explanation from anyone as to why those $79 slot readers don't work on Macs but they don't.
And, need I say it again -- use the Lenovo S10e. Plug in a $40 USB Gigabit Ethernet adapter and plug it into your desktop -- DONE. Now, for under $400, you have a slot on your desktop Mac, which you can also use in the field for offloading.
What is the resistance?
It already exists, the PCD20.
With due respect, it's solely a Mac issue. Or, let me put it another way -- it's only an issue for those Mac users who refuse to look at other solutions. All these "issues" are nonissues for Windows users. Windows users can use the PCMCIA slot, Windows users can use the Duel adapter, Windows users can use the Addonics, Windows users can use the $79 slot reader.
Which is not to say "Windows is better", it's to say: keep the focus on exactly where the problem lies.
So the issue is entirely, completely, and solely restricted to those who want to use Apple hardware. And there is a highly affordable solution available right now, today, no waiting -- a 160GB offload station which costs $350, and with the addition of a $40 adapter it becomes a desktop offload station too.
Also, there is no requirement to update to SL, or you can purchase a MacBook Pro with a EC/34 slot.
I disagree with Barry on this. Apple is a hardware and software company, and every new product must appeal to the widest range of potential users. I would venture that the tiny percentage of that are p2 card based.
The 17 inch MBP has an EC/34 slot and will run Leopard I believe.
EC/34 MBPs can be purchased on eBay and elsewhere.
The real issue is the historic lack of a reasonably priced Panasonic PC Cardbus reader.
I'm not dissing the company, just identifying a long standing hole in the workflow process for a majority of users as I see it
I disagree with Barry on this. Apple is a hardware and software company, and every new product must appeal to the widest range of potential users. I would venture that the tiny percentage of that are p2 card based.
The 17 inch MBP has an EC/34 slot and will run Leopard I believe.
EC/34 MBPs can be purchased on eBay and elsewhere.
The real issue is the historic lack of a reasonably priced Panasonic PC Cardbus reader.
I'm not dissing the company, just identifying a long standing hole in the workflow process for a majority of users as I see it
Barry_Green
Moderator
The fact remains that it is only Apple users (or, another way, users of Apple hardware) who are encountering any difficulties. Apple's "Snow Leopard" seems to have killed the Duel Adapter. Duel changed nothing, Apple changes something, and all of a sudden "poof" the Duel doesn't work anymore. Whose fault is that? And whose responsibility is it to fix it? Gotta lay the blame at Apple's feet on that one.
The Addonics adapter works fine. But not on Apple hardware. Why? I don't know. But you can use it on pretty much any Windows box and it works, so... where do we point the finger of incompatibility? Hmmm.
The $79 slot readers work fine on any Windows box. But none of them work on Apple hardware. Why? I don't know, but ... there's a common denominator here.
So -- look, here's what it comes down to: Apple users choose their proprietary hardware and their proprietary OS on purpose. And, frankly, Apple users pay a lot more for it. So why not just choke it down and buy the bleedin' PCD20 and be done with it? You want a hardware solution that works, works well, indestructible, will work on desktops and laptops regardless of what Apple decides to change next -- just get a PCD20.
For those who refuse to get a PCD20, for whatever reason, get the Lenovo/Addonics.
Those are your solutions. They exist today, they work today, and they will continue to work regardless of what transformations Apple puts their hardware and OS through.
There's a phrase that says "Buy the best, and you only cry once." Just buy the product that works and never have to worry about it again...
There's a $350 solution available today. There's a $2000 solution available today. I sincerely hope there's a good cheap single-slot reader coming from Panasonic, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a cheap USB/FW reader.
The good news is that regardless of what type of reader it is, you'll now directly be able to point the finger at Panasonic for the responsibility to keep it working through any future OS revisions.
The Addonics adapter works fine. But not on Apple hardware. Why? I don't know. But you can use it on pretty much any Windows box and it works, so... where do we point the finger of incompatibility? Hmmm.
The $79 slot readers work fine on any Windows box. But none of them work on Apple hardware. Why? I don't know, but ... there's a common denominator here.
So -- look, here's what it comes down to: Apple users choose their proprietary hardware and their proprietary OS on purpose. And, frankly, Apple users pay a lot more for it. So why not just choke it down and buy the bleedin' PCD20 and be done with it? You want a hardware solution that works, works well, indestructible, will work on desktops and laptops regardless of what Apple decides to change next -- just get a PCD20.
For those who refuse to get a PCD20, for whatever reason, get the Lenovo/Addonics.
Those are your solutions. They exist today, they work today, and they will continue to work regardless of what transformations Apple puts their hardware and OS through.
There's a phrase that says "Buy the best, and you only cry once." Just buy the product that works and never have to worry about it again...
There's a $350 solution available today. There's a $2000 solution available today. I sincerely hope there's a good cheap single-slot reader coming from Panasonic, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a cheap USB/FW reader.
The good news is that regardless of what type of reader it is, you'll now directly be able to point the finger at Panasonic for the responsibility to keep it working through any future OS revisions.
Last edited:
I agree with some of what you observed, but apart from field acquisition, exactly how are PC users ingesting the cards onto their desktops apart from using a $5k 200/170 or a $10k 300 as a USB reader?
My final point is that by your assessment at Bootcamps and the various polls at dvxuser.com indicate, the overwhelming percentage of p2 card users are Macintosh based.
That should be a motivating factor for Panasonic as well as Apple.
My final point is that by your assessment at Bootcamps and the various polls at dvxuser.com indicate, the overwhelming percentage of p2 card users are Macintosh based.
That should be a motivating factor for Panasonic as well as Apple.
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
$97 slot readers. Plugs into a PCI-express slot and gives you a single PCMCIA slot on the front of the desktop.
http://www.amtron.com/reader/p2card_reader.htm
Works on Windows, but for some reason I've never been able to figure out, they don't work on Macs. I think they might have worked on older G4 towers, but not on any more recent models.
Last edited:
Tom 4
Well-known member
Hi Barry,
Sorry mate, this Amtron reader connects via "PCI" , NOT "PCI express: it reqires a PCIE to PCI adapter to work in say the Macpro for example, I've been there done that in my tests earlier this year.
Earlier PCI Mac's like the MDD do work with the Amtron only if you use Tiger OS.
What has stalled it is Apple's continual development on The OS updates, that makes hardware non recognizable after instalation of newer Mac up-dates.
eg, I had this working with 10.5.5 then in no time at all Apple came out with 10.5.6 then 10.5.7, now SL, all in just a few months.
For any product supplier like Duel or Pana to continually have teams writing and testing updated drivers for their products must be a nightmare, if the market was huge that would be OK, but if it's a "Niche" as P2 is then it's not an earner in my opinion.
"Good to have a healthy debate on this thread" and it does show just how many P2 guys are using Mac's these days..
Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
Hey Barry, you mentioned in another thread that you thought that a FW based reader would be much more expensive that a EC/34 based reader?
Is there an engineering basis for that?
Is there an engineering basis for that?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Firewire or USB, it's the same thing, in that you have to have something (a computer) inside the reader, communicating with the card, pulling out the data, and then submitting it to one of the communications protocols (fw or USB).
Whereas with the slot, as Duel and Addonics have shown, it's a direct bus connection, the laptop acts as the computer that translates the data and the commands (through the P2 driver that needs to be installed).
Whereas with the slot, as Duel and Addonics have shown, it's a direct bus connection, the laptop acts as the computer that translates the data and the commands (through the P2 driver that needs to be installed).
Apple has obvioulsy much to blame with our P2 workflow issues (and expresscard for SxS users), but its up to the pushers of the formats, that means Panasonic and its partners for P2, and Sony, JVC for SxS, to respond to their costumer base. Panasonic has to think if they want P2 to continue to be the big hit in "our" price range. For that to succeed, they have to bare in mind that FCP IS the NLE editor leading "our" market- when I say "our", I say the low budget, small enterprise/production house/ Indie. Its not merely a Camera that one buys, but a workflow.
Pastures certainly seem greener on the PC side, but that is obviously because both Sony and Panasonic manufacture PC's- Panasonic has the toughbook, Sony the Vaios. Its also a matter of personal interest that we don't see a more, lets say, "democratic" availability of both P2 and SxS solutions, at least on the Mac. Speculating a bit more, one could even say that the implementation of SD cards on the 13 and 15" Macbook Pro's could be a sign of JVC's and Apple's working together on the SD card HD Pro camcorders.
Too much politics here, for sure...
Pastures certainly seem greener on the PC side, but that is obviously because both Sony and Panasonic manufacture PC's- Panasonic has the toughbook, Sony the Vaios. Its also a matter of personal interest that we don't see a more, lets say, "democratic" availability of both P2 and SxS solutions, at least on the Mac. Speculating a bit more, one could even say that the implementation of SD cards on the 13 and 15" Macbook Pro's could be a sign of JVC's and Apple's working together on the SD card HD Pro camcorders.
Too much politics here, for sure...
Barry_Green
Moderator
And they have. The PCD20 is a desktop/laptop reader that costs half what a deck does. And the cameras give you the option of a "free" reader.
Honestly, sometimes it sounds like people are trying to say that you can't work with it. It's there. It works. And in case anyone missed it, the title of this thread is about how Panasonic is now announcing a new single-slot device, which (in my guess) will take the place of the Duel.
True. Which is why the workflow exists, start to finish. What doesn't exist is an Apple-only laptop solution right now, due to Apple changing the rules.
Doubtful; Sony tried to really push how they were "working closely with Apple" in relation to the expresscard slot and how apple dropped the PCMCIA slot. Makes 'em look pretty silly when a couple of years later Apple drops the expresscard slot too.
Heck, Panasonic could claim that the inclusion of the SD slot is because they're working closely with panasonic on AVCHD...
It does exist for thousands of EC/34 15" MBPs that are still available and those that don't update to SL.
Apple got rid of the floppy drive years ago to much criticism. Every body complained then. But not now. What has survived in FW and USB.
Panasonic has been criticized for years due to the absence of a single slot p2 reader that works with FW or USB for p2 cards. I can't buy that argument that this is Apple's problem.
The absence of a Panasonic branded low cost p2 reader that pre dates Apple's hardware change by years. p2 slots aren't mainstream now. EC/34 slots are also less available.
I'm delighted, as I would imagine most of Panasonic p2 target users (read Macintosh), that Panasonic is building a single slot reader.
Apple got rid of the floppy drive years ago to much criticism. Every body complained then. But not now. What has survived in FW and USB.
Panasonic has been criticized for years due to the absence of a single slot p2 reader that works with FW or USB for p2 cards. I can't buy that argument that this is Apple's problem.
The absence of a Panasonic branded low cost p2 reader that pre dates Apple's hardware change by years. p2 slots aren't mainstream now. EC/34 slots are also less available.
I'm delighted, as I would imagine most of Panasonic p2 target users (read Macintosh), that Panasonic is building a single slot reader.
Steve Smull
Active member
I would not be surprised to see Apple restore the Express Card slot to the 15 inch MacBook Pro, at least for the near term. Historically there are precedents; the original Intel MacBook Pro lost the FireWire 800 port and subsequently regained it after complaints, and more recently the MacBook had FireWire 400 restored. Then again, I'm still waiting for a response from my email in 1998 to put the floppy back into my Flower Power iMac
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes, and by that same logic (using existing/not-new products) I could say that the G4 exists too.
And they've MADE a P2 USB/FW reader for years. You just don't like the price, is all. But it exists and anyone who wants to actually get to work can fully do so. And can continue to do so, no matter what Apple does (until, of course, Apple decides to remove USB and firewire...)
You can't buy that Apple breaking the Duel adapter drive is Apple's problem? Or you can't buy that Apple removing the slot, which ruins the ability to use the Duel adapter, is Apple's problem?
Sorry, but in both cases Apple took action which disrupted the status quo, therefore it's *very* simple to point the finger at the cause of the problem.
That all depends on what you mean by "low cost". When P2 was introduced your option was a $25,000 DVCPRO-HD deck, an $80,000 HDCAM deck, or a $2,000 P2 reader.
Yes, but how loudly will the wails of anguish roar when you find out that it's not gonna be a $100 firewire reader?
Whatever, I'm gonna drop out of this. Everyone can pretend they're going to get a little $50 single-slot reader (or $100 or $200 or whatever) and if it happens, great. When it doesn't happen, and what you get is either a revamped expresscard reader for cheap, or a too-expensive-for-your-taste USB/FW reader, I'll just say that I told you this was gonna happen six months or nine months ahead of time, so...
... in the meantime, you could have just bought the $350 Lenovo solution and been working for the intervening nine months with no hassles. But, for whatever reason, people want to fight that, so I guess there's really nothing more that can be done.
Do not question us Mac user's relutance of going windows, even for a simple action like P2 transfer. Its like asking an american to turn communist, a Knicks fan to become a Bulls fan, etc, etc.
Good business or reasonable workflow thinking has nothing to do with it.
Barry. Panasonic chose cardbus based HDDs.
Are we moving towards that interface, or away from it?
No, I don't know anyone who likes the price. And in today's economy companies have to be more nimble. You argue against the proprietary based QT wrapper for Apple, but for the proprietary based p2 cardbus slot for Panasonic. I don't like the former, but the latter is more maddening to me as well.
But the fact of the matter is that Cardbus interface was eroding even when it was introduced.
We disagree on this, and respectfully, but four years down the road, and I'm emphasizing a Cardbus to FW or USB reasonably priced reader from company that sells Cardbus p2 cards in a market where ExpressCard is now even disappearing.
I'm the last to argue the utility and reliability of p2 based video acquisition.
I'm the first to argue for a low cost Panasonic branded p2 card reader to FW/USB at a price that most of us like.
Are we moving towards that interface, or away from it?
No, I don't know anyone who likes the price. And in today's economy companies have to be more nimble. You argue against the proprietary based QT wrapper for Apple, but for the proprietary based p2 cardbus slot for Panasonic. I don't like the former, but the latter is more maddening to me as well.
But the fact of the matter is that Cardbus interface was eroding even when it was introduced.
We disagree on this, and respectfully, but four years down the road, and I'm emphasizing a Cardbus to FW or USB reasonably priced reader from company that sells Cardbus p2 cards in a market where ExpressCard is now even disappearing.
I'm the last to argue the utility and reliability of p2 based video acquisition.
I'm the first to argue for a low cost Panasonic branded p2 card reader to FW/USB at a price that most of us like.
To be honest, I think it does make sense for someone to buy two 64 GB E series cards, and use the cam is a reader.
Those hold two hours of 1080 footage and much more of 720/24pN.
It makes more sense for the company to spend its R/D dollars on E series cards rather than developing a $500 FW/USB card reader.
Those hold two hours of 1080 footage and much more of 720/24pN.
It makes more sense for the company to spend its R/D dollars on E series cards rather than developing a $500 FW/USB card reader.
Last edited:
Tom 4
Well-known member
Food for thought,
Maybe Apple should develop and port their FCS software to the windows platform and put all us P2 users out of our misery ? .
P2 works great on the simpler Windows boxes.
Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
Maybe Apple should develop and port their FCS software to the windows platform and put all us P2 users out of our misery ? .
P2 works great on the simpler Windows boxes.
Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
Barry_Green
Moderator
I know you say it jokingly, but I find it true far more often than not. And I simply can't fathom it -- you won't use a working solution merely because ... it says "windows" on it?Do not question us Mac user's relutance of going windows, even for a simple action like P2 transfer. Its like asking an american to turn communist, a Knicks fan to become a Bulls fan, etc, etc.
Good business or reasonable workflow thinking has nothing to do with it.
You'll pay $500 for a card reader that does nothing but read cards, but you won't save $150 and get a 160GB offload station that also does footage logging, word processing, playback, networking, wifi, everything else ... just so you can say you didn't touch "windows"?
You'll jump through hoops and demand solutions, and when perfectly valid solutions are presented you'll ignore them and say "no, I want it my way"?
I don't know how much help you can expect when you've painted yourself into such a restrictive box...
Barry_Green
Moderator
David, say it with me again -- if it was possible, someone would have done it by now. If anyone, anywhere, had any means to do it, I would have moved heaven and earth to get it to happen. But it's not possible. There is not now, nor will there ever be, some $150 USB/Firewire slot reader. Not. Gonna. Happen.I'm the first to argue for a low cost Panasonic branded p2 card reader to FW/USB at a price that most of us like.
I have contacted companies. I've contacted manufacturers. I've tried to get it made. It cannot be made. It. Will. Not. Happen.
I would LOVE to eat those words, next Spring. Somehow I have a feeling I won't be.
So you can buy what works, or you can complain, or you can move to a different platform and all the hardware complications go away. Those are the choices.
Or, you could just run bootcamp/windows on your Mac laptop and continue using your Duel like you always have. That's a practically free solution available right now, today, no waiting.
There are lots and lots and lots of solutions for people who will just open their eyes.
You've been sent two boats and a helicopter. You can hop in any time.
Or, maybe, Panasonic will do what everyone else has said can't be done, and they'll produce a $500 reader. I will be shocked. And some of you will be happy.
Of course, others will scream that they can buy an SD reader for $9, so why is the Panasonic one sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo overpriced!?!#?@!?##1111$@@!??
In the meantime -- has anyone tried shoving a Duel adapter into this thing?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._US10_SBAC_US10_SxS_Memory_Card.html#features
I'm 99% certain it won't work, but -- might as well try it, right?