Panasonic announces new HC-X1 4K camcorder

Yes, if they can put 10 bit 4:2:2 in a $2,000 still camera... We will see. I would not be surprised because the GH users have been asking for this and it will help sell cameras. I am prepared to hear "8bit 4:2:0 is good enough" regarding all of these 1" camera just like they said a year ago with the DVX200. Just seems like DVD, it will never go away. :)
 
Camera Expert said:
... 10 bit 4:22 ... willing to put it into a GH5.... I really wouldn't be surprised at all knowing Panasonic.
Click to expand...

...or Sony, for that matter. The PXW-X70 vs FDR-AX100 60mbps vs 100mbps brouhaha, the number of cameras they've released without 60p even after the DVX200 has been out and about, and *long* after they already had two (small sensor) cameras with that ability. Externally it appears that there's siloed momentum and not a lot of agility in this industry. Breakthroughs happen in one department, but the benefit is rarely felt immediately throughout the company. That's how you get a consumer product with a feature that should be in the prosumer product, but isn't. It's how you'd get a feature in a dslr that ought to be in your camcorders. Long-term it's good, as it has to happen first somewhere, and eventually it does make its way around (I think the X70 got it's bitrate upgraded, though I confess I stopped paying attention when it was clear we weren't getting a 60p upgrade any time soon). But short-term it looks like insanity.

To be honest, I'm far more concerned about the quality of the encoder and the low-light response of the camera. 10bit would be great, 4:2:2 I don't care much about, but retaining high resolution at high shutter speeds is going to be really important to me.
 
Bassman2003 said:
I am prepared to hear "8bit 4:2:0 is good enough" regarding all of these 1" camera just like they said a year ago with the DVX200. Just seems like DVD, it will never go away. :)
Click to expand...

The recording data rates on the HC-X1 are exactly the same as the DVX200, so I'm expecting that it will record the same format - 8-bit 4:2:0. However, the DVX200 does output 8-bit 4:2:2 and 10-bit 4:2:2 for external recorders, so maybe the HC-X1 will also do the same. Just hope the picture quality is better than DVX200.
 
Sumfun said:
Just hope the picture quality is better than DVX200.
Click to expand...

The sensor is nearly identical in pixel pitch, and there are fewer of them contributing to the final picture (except in UHD/60p), so I don't know why you'd expect that to be an improvement. UHD/24-30 is likely to lose detail. Low-light response is also likely to be worse (identical low-light lux values notwithstanding) so I can only assume you're referring to the color complaints that were rampant around here when the DVX-200 was released. I admit that I'm eager to see a few demo shots and am hoping to see water, overcast sky, and flesh without the purple cast that I saw on the 200's footage. But there's a lot of color control on the camera, so I'm also hopeful that any issue it has can be dealt with.

And yes, I'm not expecting 10bit. Shooting dark, keeping what's recorded nice and linear, and then raising in post, would be awesome. I'm sure they're working on it, but it doesn't seem ready to ship yet. Pity. I assume it will also require a brain transplant to provide it, which makes it unlikely as a firmware upgrade. Double-pity.

I'm also not terribly hopeful that the UX180 will have 10bit, if for no other reason than that it's supposed to slot under the dvx-200. I'm assuming the $800 difference is getting you a hot shoe, TC, SDI, and an upgraded LCD screen (maybe). [On the other hand, inclusion of 10bit on the UX90 would go a long way to explaining its price point :shrug: ]

ed: and doesn't appear we're getting the higher res LCD: http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/11989112/ [you'll need to translate that, and if anyone can decipher what they're saying about the focusing ring...] Hopefully the HC-X1 retains the DVX-200's macro mode. Reading the specs of the UX90, I can't imagine it'll sell against the HC-X1.... Delivery in December for the UX180. :sigh:
 
Last edited:
These cameras look like nice tools. I am just a bit disappointed that Panasonic is aiming for the low to mid end of prosumer rather than lead with the micro P2 line. With the DVX200 acting as a sort of 'top tier' it seems as if they have abandoned the more "pro" level offerings. I invested in the PX270 product and was hoping for more tools to match from the broadcast group.
 
Sumfun said:
The recording data rates on the HC-X1 are exactly the same as the DVX200, so I'm expecting that it will record the same format - 8-bit 4:2:0. However, the DVX200 does output 8-bit 4:2:2 and 10-bit 4:2:2 for external recorders, so maybe the HC-X1 will also do the same. Just hope the picture quality is better than DVX200.
Click to expand...

The spec sheet for the UX180 states that the UX180 records 8-bit 4:2:0 internally and outputs 8-bit 4:2:2 externally. 4K external output is 8-bit 4:2:0.

http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/4k_camcorder/ag-ux180/pdf/ag-ux180_spec.pdf

Since the HC-X1 has the same sensor and image processing as the UX180 I would assume the color bit depth would be the same.
 
Last edited:
firehawk said:
Maybe they are still working on a higher-tier camera above the dvx200 but below the high end. ??
Click to expand...

That would be a pleasant surprise, but don't hold your breath. Panasonic is still suffering financial woes having a net income of only 2.3% in the 2015 annual report. Employees have dropped from about 360,000 to 250,000 in the last four years. A highlight of the annual report is that digital cameras have returned to the black after restructuring. So things are improving financially, but only after cutting employees and restructuring divisions. They need to participate in markets that give them cash flow. They are still probably in hunker-down mode and likely have little cash to spend on smaller markets. That means the $1700 AF-200 many were looking for (in late 2014) and other lower-volume markets may continue to be ignored by Panasonic for the time being. So I suspect dreams of $1700 cameras or 10-bit 4:2:2 or lens mounts instead of integrated lenses in the lower priced market may not be fulfilled soon. Hey, let's hope I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:
nutmegger said:
The spec sheet for the UX180 states that the UX180 records 8-bit 4:2:0 internally and outputs 8-bit 4:2:2 externally. 4K external output is 8-bit 4:2:0.
Click to expand...

Great find on the specs. So, the 8-bit downgrade (from the 10-bit on the DVX-200) is likely marketing-driven, which makes me concerned about what they might do on the HC-X1. Cross fingers!
The 4:2:0 seems to be purely a UHD/60 concern (not all 4k is downgraded to 4:2:0 per the note).

Paul F said:
That would be a pleasant surprise, but don't hold your breath. Panasonic is still suffering financial woes ...
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm not entirely hopeful either -- the whole industry is suffering. I think Bassman's point is that Panasonic already has the requisite technology in their PX270. Unfortunately, I suspect it's married to the microP2 slot-writing software/hardware, could be HD-specific, and may not be quite so easy to disentangle. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to be quite the uphill slog that it might otherwise be. It was certainly possible to envision an appearance of that tech here, especially with the sensor deliveries likely slipping. Alas, it was not meant to be.
 
nutmegger said:
Since the HC-X1 has the same sensor and image processing as the UX180 I would assume the color bit depth would be the same.
Click to expand...

Can someone list what exactly are the main differences between the HC-X1 and the UX180...

I am trying to wrap my head around how these three cameras ( UX90, US180, HC-X1 ) size up against each other.
 
From the available data UX180 has 3GSDI and timecode connectors that on the HC-X1 are video and audio out. UX180 has an extra 1/8" jack for A/V. The promotion videos are identical other than the scene that shows these jacks. Unless I missed something else. Of course there could be menu controls that are different too.
 
Ron Evans said:
UX180 has an extra 1/8" jack for A/V.
Click to expand...

...and I managed, somehow, to miss that. Thank you, that makes more sense than losing any way other than hdmi/sdi to output audio!
So, considering my dumb, I watched the two streams side-by-side. There's a 4k-lineup slide on the UX180, a number of shots where branding 'UX' vs 'HC-X1' are different, an ending comparison between the 90 and the 180, and a pre-order link for the HC-X1: http://shop.panasonic.com/cameras-and-camcorders/camcorders/HC-X1.html

*That* link mentions timecode. Which is odd. I chatted with one of their sales people who no doubt has the same brochure information that I do, so that was pointless.... :)
It also mentions an Oct-Nov fill date, which works astonishingly better for me....

If anyone's at NAB, asking after a macro mode would be good. I doubt that closer-than-1m work is likely, but still, having the flexibility would be really nice. I'm becoming slightly concerned that it isn't mentioned (and is for the DVX-200).
Looks like there are separate 90e/90p models, but one 180 model. Odd.
I'm also wondering if and/or how much power is available from that USB connector. Would be nice to drive my audio from there.

Ed: Due to conversations I had with tech-support@Panasonic, I would strongly suggest a verification on the "8bits" for the UX180 output.
 
Last edited:
TheDingo said:
Can someone list what exactly are the main differences between the HC-X1 and the UX180...

I am trying to wrap my head around how these three cameras ( UX90, US180, HC-X1 ) size up against each other.
Click to expand...
In a nutshell, it appears that the UX180 and HC-X1 are twins, and the UX90 is their little brother.

The UX90 has a 15x zoom, and maxxes out at UHD/30p. The UX180 and HC-X1 have 20x zooms and max out at UHD/60p. They seem to be pretty much identical, but the UX180 adds a 3G-SDI port and a timecode sync port. The UX180 is sold by the broadcast division of Panasonic, and the HC-X1 is sold by the consumer/stills division. I don't know what differences there may be in terms of the warranty offered, or the exact price differences between them.
 
Hope they develop an Android app too. Looks useful but don't want to buy an Ios product when everything else I have is Android.
 
dnavas said:
Ed: Due to conversations I had with tech-support@Panasonic, I would strongly suggest a verification on the "8bits" for the UX180 output.
Click to expand...

To call this out a little stronger, I had a chat with someone with technical details on the HC-X1 at Panasonic (how detailed is difficult to judge). This person mentioned that there was a macro mode that the camera automatically entered closer than 1.5m. They did not mention the closest approach, but I suggest that the minimum distance rating on the UX180 of 1m is likely to be that limit. You will not be performing live interviews with this camera if that's the case, I would think.... There is also sufficient power to run an HD off the USB port, but the power limit wasn't communicated.

I also asked if the HC-X1 had 4:2:2 like the UX180 did. The answer was "Yes, the unit outputs 4:2:2 at 10 bits."
Orly? 10bits says I? Hence my suggestion that someone else verify....

That said, this was off the same pre-order page that suggests the HC-X1 will ship Oct/Nov, and that it has timecode on it, so, take with an adequate dose of salt.

[I'm sorry to say I did not pursue the 96GB limit, which I agree is a bit concerning for UHD 2+hr concert recordings. This would also be easier with an *android* remote control :hint hint: as there are usually intermissions half-way through.]
 
dnavas said:
They did not mention the closest approach, but I suggest that the minimum distance rating on the UX180 of 1m is likely to be that limit. You will not be performing live interviews with this camera if that's the case, I would think....
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go making any such statements at this point. I'd point out two reasons why:
1) in the DVX200 specifications, they also list the exact same terminology, that the closest focus point (M.O.D.) is approximately 1.0m from the front of the lens. The exact same wording that is in the UX180 brochure. However, we all know that the DVX200 can in reality resolve focus much much closer than that, and the 1.0m limitation is only for 100% telephoto. At full tele, you can focus down to 1.0m, but at wide angle you can focus substantially closer. I suspect the UX180 will be the same way.

2) Even if it isn't, even if there truly is no way to get the lens to focus on a point closer than 1.0m, that still doesn't mean that objects closer than 1m won't be in focus. At full wide angle, 8.8mm, at wide-open iris f/2.8, the DOF will extend down to about 2.2 feet. If you've got the camera closer than 2 feet to someone's face, I'd suspect you might be doing it wrong. Even so, that's at fully open iris; in daylight you could use f/16 and focus under 1 foot away.

But again, this is guesswork based on incomplete info based on a pre-production, prototype camera. I would be willing to bet fifty bucks that there will either be a dedicated macro mode, or that the camera will be able to focus closer than 1m when it's wider than full telephoto. Time will tell, and the answers will become apparent. You cannot rely on what someone working at the booth says, unless that person is an engineer. If they're the guy who built the camera, then they'll know. Anyone else? Unfortunately, no, they don't have definitive answers, they won't necessarily know, and even what they do know may be subject to change as details about the camera may change prior to it shipping.
 
Barry_Green said:
I wouldn't go making any such statements at this point. I'd point out two reasons why:
Click to expand...

Yes, I was thinking along those same lines, and then I had someone fire a "4.9 foot auto-macro mode" spec at me. It was unusual in its precision, and so proved more difficult to ignore. I'll trust your instincts, they're better informed.

Ed: I see, 4.9 ft focus distance -> 3 ft MOD. It's probably the same value :slaps self:
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top