Panasonic announces new HC-X1 4K camcorder

the 1" sensor segment is continuing to develop nicely.

the sony and canon offerings are all on version 2 (sony rx10mk2 - canon xc15)

i am pleased that panasonic has entered the market space.

(note the inclusion of xlr audio inputs which is available on the updated canon cx15 but not the sony)

i would have preferred pro res to .mov as the codec of choice.

i also wonder about whether 422/10 bit or 420/8bit.

that said, panasonic always did a nice job with color science and have lately done well with image stabilization.

i look forward to seeing the camera when finally released.

welcome back, pannie!

be well.

rob
smalltalk.productions
 
in reading the linked brouchure-page 9 says the hc x1 does pre and interval recording and also does time stamp.

all of those features could be helpful.

(if the image quality is stellar!)

be well.

rob
smalltalk.productions
 
I hope it competes with the Z150 on the 4:2:2/10bit. If it does will buy two or three for multicam.
 
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I know, that would be sufficient, but can you imagine if they did 4:2:2 4k even in 8bit internally, I think it would outperform everything else as far as unit sales in that price range. Panasonic needs to get more aggressive in including these features in a camera like this since it's only a 1" sensor.
 
robfilms said:
i also wonder about whether 422/10 bit or 420/8bit.
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We don't know formats, but we do know bitrates, and they are the same as the DVX-200 -- read that as you will. If there's an upgrade, I'd expect it first in the UX models, but then Sony got upside down wrt bitrates and the X70, so who knows?! I wouldn't lay down any bets on 422, though.
 
So how does Panasonic expect the UX90 to sell for $3,000 when you have this camera costing just $200 more which ads a greater zoom range and 4K60p recording. Something doesn't ad up. Is the 1" chip of the UX90 and UX180 better than the 1" chip of the HC-X1? If the chips are the same than perhaps the UX90 and UX180 are capable of outputting 10 bit 4:2:2 while the HC-X1 can only output 8 bit 4:2:0. If the chip and the output are the same than Panasonic might as well sell the UX90 for around $2,500.

I would love to upgrade my AC90 to either the HC-X1, UX180 or the DVX200.
 
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Camera Expert said:
So how does Panasonic expect the UX90 to sell for $3,000 when you have this camera costing just $200 more which ads a greater zoom range and 4K60p recording. Something doesn't ad up. Is the 1" chip of the UX90 and UX180 better than the 1" chip of the HC-X1? If the chips are the same than perhaps the UX90 and UX180 are capable of outputting 10 bit 4:2:2 while the HC-X1 can only output 8 bit 4:2:0. If the chip and the output are the same than Panasonic might as well sell the UX90 for around $2,500. I would love to upgrade my AC90 to either the HC-X1, UX180 or the DVX200.
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Well the haven't announced final pricing for the UX-180/90 yet, at the NAB launch they promise it'll sell for under $4000/$3000 respectively but that does not mean the launch price must be $3999/$2999. I think for the DVX200 they initially announced under $5000 and launched at $4200. But I think it's really, really odd for a company to undercut its own unreleased product with yet another similar unreleased product. I mean if they launch now in "fall" just a few months before the HC-X1, I'd need some pretty strong assurances to buy a UX180/90 at launch and risk that two months later you get a better product. The specs look similar but being in totally different series, I wouldn't assume anything is the same unless they say so.

If this really is roughly the same camera it'd make much more sense to just say we're not doing two cameras, we're doing three... the UX180 with 3G-SDI launching at $3xxx we'll do a UX170 (= HC-X1) for $3199 launching in december and a UX90 launching at $2xxx. If it's not the same camera their marketing department needs to wake up and realize they're making a mess. I was planning to buy the UX180. Now I'm planning to sit on the fence until December and see what's what. If the UX180 launches soonish (September-October) at a good price and they can tell me exactly what I'm getting compared to the HC-X1, maybe I'll change my mind again. But right now I'd say they've managed to mess up a sale they had already pretty much made.
 
Camera Expert said:
perhaps the UX90 and UX180 are capable of outputting 10 bit 4:2:2 while the HC-X1 can only output 8 bit 4:2:0.
I would love to upgrade my AC90 to either the HC-X1, UX180 or the DVX200.
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That's what I suspect as well. The 1"-Type sensor sounds close to what I'd expect if you took the DVX-200's sensor and always ran it in its 4k60p cropped mode -- rather than have a very high megapixel sensor like the FZ1000, or the PXW-X70/Z150, it looks like they're doing a ~1:1 readout for 4k/UHD. I don't know that that's the sensor you're going to be getting in either or both cameras -- the 4k60p cropped mode is, iirc, about 10% smaller than a 1" sensor would be. But it's a decent bet from what I can see.

Once you have the sensor, it seems like you had two competing groups within Panasonic working to put together a camera. One group started with the guts of the DVX-200, and they're coming out first with a high-end and low-end version. Another group started with the guts of the HC-X1000 and is coming out a month later. One of these groups started with 10bit guts, and the other with 8bit. Of course, it's always possible that the former group added 10bit internal recording or that the latter group created a whole new 10bit internal system, but if I had to guess, I'd guess the situation is as you described -- 8bit for the X1, 10bit for the UX-*, and neither records 10bit internally.

I'm always willing to be pleasantly surprised, of course.
 
I expect they are all the same basically. There is likely more processing power as well as interfaces needed for SDI. SDI is only HD so that there will have to be a conversion from 4K or UHD to feed the SDI not needed in either the UX90 or the HC-X1. Firmware may account for the rest based on marketing needs. They say 1" type so not a cropped 4/3 of the DVX200. The Sony's are based on still aspect ratio so are cropped for 16x9. I think they will be 4:2:0 with possibility of 4:2:2 over SDI and HDMI when shooting HD. I guess we will find out in a week or so.
 
Kjella said:
Well the haven't announced final pricing for the UX-180/90 yet, at the NAB launch they promise it'll sell for under $4000/$3000 respectively but that does not mean the launch price must be $3999/$2999.
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I was actually going off the B&H prices.
 
Ron Evans said:
They say 1" type so not a cropped 4/3 of the DVX200.
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My apologies, I didn't mean that they'd use the 4/3 sensor, but rather that a physically chopped sensor in the same place that the DVX-200's cropped mode runs yields a sensor with very similar specs, and that it's likely that the same tech has been used here. Forget that the cropped size is roughly a 1" sensor, here's what the DVX-200 has to say about low-light:
Minimum Subject Illumination:0.2 lx (F2.8, gain 18 dB, [1/2 sec.], [HIGH SENS.] mode)
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and what the HC-X1 says:
Minimum Illumination 0.2 lx (F2.8, Gain 18dB, Manual Slow Shutter 1/2, HIGH SENS mode)
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It's remarkably similar. Do we know where the DVX-200's sensor hails from?

FWIW, the OLED eyepiece is lifted straight off the DVX-200 as well (same size and specs). However, the LCD panel is lifted off the HC-X1000. I suppose it's possible that the UX models might get the pixel-denser LCD that the DVX-200 sports. It's also possible that the lens systems are all different (sigh).

Also, from our other conversation, the HC-X1 definitely has a fan -- you can see that here: http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consume...camcorders/hd-camcorders/hc-x1e.html#features on the fifth and sixth pics.
 
All 3 cameras really should be able to output 10 bit 4:4:2. If you think about it, it's really crazy that a camera like the GH4 can have 10 bit 4:2:2 output while a professional camcorder with loads of external features such as the HC-X1 most likely only outputs 8 bit 4:2:2. Doesn't make sense.
 
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Camera Expert said:
All 3 cameras really should be able to output .... Doesn't make sense.
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If it helps, there are at least two good pieces of evidence that point to a significant data-path upgrade for the HC-X1: the new color correction, gamma, and scene files; and the 19W power use (very similar to DVX-200). Sanity in the industry, on the other hand, has as far as I can tell never been in the offing. ;>

I will be very interested in seeing how these cameras compare to the Z150. Although that camera doesn't work for me, its 10bit internal recording and lower power use is going to be attractive to many, and it is cost-comparative and similar in size and weight....
 
I am Sony fan really all my cameras are Sony and if the Z150 had UHD60P and a touch screen I would have bought it I think. My NX5U is showing its age and my FDR-AX1 is much like the HC-X1000 in low light ( may of course have the same sensor !!! ). When the AG-UX180 came along it seemed like the ideal replacement for either or both my cameras. Don't really need SGI so will wait and see how things turn out in the next few months.
 
Theirs a crazy rumor going around saying that the GH5 will be able to shoot 10 bit 4:2:2. I don't think it'll happen but for sure it would be nice. Imagine if that came true. Don't want to put 10 bit 4:22 internal recordings into the DVX200 or any of the new 1" chip professional camcorders but are more than willing to put it into a GH5. Again I find it unlikely that the GH5 would do that but if it happens, I really wouldn't be surprised at all knowing Panasonic.

This whole thing reminds me of the time Panasonic put pure 24p into the GH2 while their top of the line consumer camcorders had it within a 60i stream. My mind wanted to explode. I was sick and tired of having to use Cineform Neo Scene just to convert it back to 24p. I'm still glad my GH2 had a native 24p mode but I really found it shocking that they're willing to put into a still camera but not on a their top range consumer camcorders.

Yeah the Z150 would have been awesome if it had a 4K60p mode. At a Portuguese event in Fall River Massachusetts, I was given that camera to shoot the concerts and the video was being shown on the projector live at the event behind the bands so that the people who are way back in the audience can still see the musicians. Despite the fact that the lens starts at f/2.8, the low light capabilities was decent. I was usually shooting at a higher number F stop and no gain was engaged. I was also using auto focusing. It hunted a few times but most of the times the auto-focusing was decent. I didn't receive any complaints.

4K60p is one of the reasons why I'd prefer either the HC-X1 or the UX180 over the Z150. Plus, I'm thinking the auto focusing might be better on the Panasonic camcorders. Still, it would be good to see real world comparisons between the Sony and Panasonic camcorders. You also never know if Sony will release a 1" version of the Z100. For sure it would be priced much higher than the UX180.
 
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