Panasonic 4K S35 Varicam: More info
- Thread starter Babu
- Start date
snowblindfilm
Carbonite Member
I completely agree with these points. I just think MFT sensor size is not the issue and calling it dead end is kind of silly. As the matter of fact MFT sensor size has a lot to offer, and in some situation is better then S35. Sensor size is not where AF100 is falling short at the moment. I think a minor update to AF100 is a complete miss.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Pretty sure the FS700 outputs more than 8bit.....that's kind of the whole point of the Odyssey 7Q.
You might level the argument that the 7Q doesn't exist yet (which would be a fair argument).
So, the expensive Sony solution also will record greater than 8 bit from the FS700.
GaryNattrass
Veteran
BUT 4K is so out of date have people not seen that RED 6K is the new kid on the block even though there are no TV's to view it on! :laugh:
Barry_Green
Moderator
The specific statement was in regards to SDI. Raw is a different thing entirely. My point is that 8-bit SDI (and HDMI) is common, 10-bit is nearly non-existent.
Red, Canon, Sony, and JVC all have released 4K cameras, and BMD is scheduled to release one shortly. Panasonic will be the last of the major manufacturers to do so -- so, yeah, it's late to the party.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Doesn't the 7Q record 'popular codec' non RAW, greater than 8 bit video, from the FS700
as well? I havent stayed up on it as well as I should have but I seem to remember hearing
that it did. But I would agree, it is uncommon to get 10 bit out from a lower priced camera.
The $2K BMCC has 10-bit HD-SDI.
GaryNattrass
Veteran
Well sony have only just released two low cost cmos cameras with 50mbs broadcast codecs and I've had my AVC Intra 100 HPX301 for nearly five years now so it all depends which party you are attending. :2vrolijk_08:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Not through SDI. The HD-SDI output of the FS700 is strictly 8 bits.
Convergent is talking about taking the raw data stream and de-bayering it and scaling it down to 1080p and 10 bits, but that's totally different from having a 10-bit SDI output. The END RESULT would be the same, yes, but the question was what cameras have 10-bit SDI outputs, and the answer is "pretty much none under $10k".
Barry_Green
Moderator
Does it? Has anyone tested to see whether it's a true 10-bit output or 8-bit embedded in 10 bits? I'm asking, because I don't know.
Technically ALL output on an SDI port is 10 bits, because 10 bits is the standard SDI transmission protocol. It's just that almost all cameras (under $13k) only populate that 10-bit word with 8 bits of data, and they leave the bottom two bits unused. Do you know of any test reports that show that the BMCC is actually outputting 10 bits of usable data? (it might be, but that would be quite unusual).
DendriteStudios
Active member
Hopefully Panasonic knocks it out of the park with this. 4k, 1080, high frame rates. Multitude of codecs from the high end down to the super edit friendly. Interchangeable lens mounts. Lightweight. Good weather sealing. Make it work for cinema and for doc and for everything in between. High dynamic range being key. Keep it affordable but still challenge the top.
Even though it is late it will sell like hotcakes if they deliver.
Even though it is late it will sell like hotcakes if they deliver.
Michael Schrengohst
Well-known member
I have said for years - if they could get GH2 image quality into the HVX200 form factor and sell it for under $3000 - well…….
I still use GH2 when I need better image quality than the HVX. Still use the HVX for run & gun.
I have rented the HPX500 but was not sold on it's image quality.
I have since bought a BMCC MFT and use that for interviews and most other shooting I do now.
It's quirky but the image quality is there.
I still use GH2 when I need better image quality than the HVX. Still use the HVX for run & gun.
I have rented the HPX500 but was not sold on it's image quality.
I have since bought a BMCC MFT and use that for interviews and most other shooting I do now.
It's quirky but the image quality is there.
Any hard info on what form factor it will be? Love the AF100 form factor + all the bells and whistles. An AF200 with similar FF but S35 sensor, yada, would be very appealing indeed.
dregenthal
Veteran
While the picture clearly states (and we know this from experience with all manufacturers) that the product may be different than what's pictured . . . it looks almost modular . . .
(who knows, maybe they're going to get RED to make it for them?)
But s35 and 4k are the latest "big thing" from Black Magic, surely?
And one thing that I despair of with forums is the way far too many people must see everything in black and white - everything has to be perfect or fatally flawed - no in-betweens. Real life (like grey scale images!
) is not like that - no camera is perfect, no camera is a complete disaster. That's even more the case when cost gets taken into account.And this is very true of the AF100. I've said before that in many respects it was a clever way to get a product out quickly by using existing tech to try to fill a gap in the market. It is by no means perfect, but that's not to say it's bad. If it had existed as a stop gap whilst a dedicated sensor etc solution had been developed, I'd say well done - it's the fact that all the other manufacturers have now moved on (and Panasonic hasn't) that is so unimpressive.
And it's also completely wrong to focus on individual specification aspects - be they 10 bit, 4:2:2 or whatever. Manufacturers, or rather their designers generally match features to correspond. Barry is absolutely correct when he says that few cameras under $10,000 have a true 10 bit output. It doesn't matter. The point is that such are highly unlikely to have a clean enough output for any difference between 8 or 10 bit recording to make much difference overall. For such, all 10 bit recording will do is code the noise more accurately! (And needlessly increase the datarate by 25%!)
Go to a top end camera and it's a different matter. In such case the noise figure is likely to be low enough that 10 bit coding WILL code real information, not noise.
Not so, and I think you are confusing the meanings of 4k as a system, and the way it (and 6k) gets used to describe sensors.
At core is that for the majority of these cameras they use a Bayer sensor, and it's become normal to use "4k" as terminology to describe a sensor with 4096 or 3840 photosites across. But key point is to realise that after deBayering the final luminance resolution won't be 4096 lines across, it'll typically be about 75-80% of the sensor dimensions. So around 3200-3300 lines - not 4096.
Move to a sensor with 50% more photosites horizontally and vertically (so 6144x3240) and the same reckoning gives about 4600-4800 lines horizontally. Which more than fills 4k system resolution, and the extra in hand makes it much easier to deal with downconversion, OLPF charecteristics etc.
The principle is exactly the same as for the Alexa and the F3 - Bayer sensors, designed to give 1080 output, but with sensor dimensions that are considerably more than 1920x1080.
Erik Naso
Veteran
I saw this today on Vimeo and it makes total sense. Panasonic wants to have 4K products for broadcast not cinema. However that modular idea with the VariCam isn't a very broadcast friendly design.
https://vimeo.com/74624976
https://vimeo.com/74624976