Panasonic 4K S35 Varicam: More info

B

Babu

Well-known member
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/news_info/news2013/20130913_05.html

"AMSTERDAM. 13 SEPTEMBER 2013 -- In response to the growing worldwide demand for 4K production, Panasonic Professional Camera Solutions is prioritizing the development of the 4K VariCam camera recorder. The VariCam will be a highly practical camera, boasting features and performance suitable not only for 4K cinema, but also HDTV content production. The camera is set for launch in 2014. Panasonic has also unveiled the development of the new Ultra P2 cards at IBC."
 
Sounds like the camera is still under development and nowhere near production. Just a press release to let us know they still want to be in the game. It would be great to have another option, but I wonder if it's too little too late.
 
Also they're developing new ULTRA P2 cards for this camera. The way the PR was written it sounds like they recognize they're late as they said they will speed up the production of the cam. Oh well.
 
And it will cost an arm and a leg.
if this product doesnt beat the f5 in price, its DOA.
If its in the FS700 range with microp2 and all the bells & whistles of a fs700. Great & competitive :P
 
Sumfun said:
Sounds like the camera is still under development and nowhere near production. Just a press release to let us know they still want to be in the game. It would be great to have another option, but I wonder if it's too little too late.
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With the way we all chase the carrot, I don't think it is ever too late. Japan has a good thing going with each power company taking turns at the reigns.
 
Sumfun said:
Just a press release to let us know they still want to be in the game. It would be great to have another option, but I wonder if it's too little too late.
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I think that sums it up pretty well. From what I heard from NAB, a big problem Panasonic may have caused for themselves was that their boss was talking a lot about 4k, whilst staff on the floor were playing it down. That reeks of confusion and mixed messages, and this may be the first sign of trying to re-establish discipline.

"Too little too late"? Good question. I doubt the "too little" bit - an s35, 4k varicam with 120fps option sounds pretty good to me! :) The big queries may be cost and when it will really ship. It's pretty certain that they are indirectly admitting they got strategy wrong big time in the past. I suspect the launch and subsequent success of the F5/55 sent massive shock waves through Panasonic, and this press release is the resulting ripple for the public - a sign they realised they had to about face their strategy.

As for "too late", then whilst I suppose you can say "better late than never", they must realise that a lot of the traditional Varicam user base is busily now buying other manufacturers s35, 4k cameras - because such are here and available now. To regain the initiative, Panasonic will have to make this forthcoming product either much cheaper or much better than the competition. That's simple marketing theory. To break into a market (or try to regain one you've lost!!) you have to have a significant advantage in cost and/or performance, otherwise the market goes with inertia - mainly continues with the market leaders.

I previously expressed surprise about the Varicam announced at NAB "only" being 1080p, when the high end of the market is looking so hard at 4k, for future proofing if not current broadcast distribution. Since that's not expected to be even available for many months (next NAB?) surely it's now obsolescent way before actual launch? That begs the question about whether it will ever actually come about, or have to be substantially discounted from day one?

I think this announcement is certainly a big step in the right direction, but it really should have come much, much sooner. Another question being begged is what can we expect in the much lower price bracket (if anything?), and does it mark a shift away from 4/3 for their large sensor video market - will the AF100 turn out to be an evolutionary dead end in the world of video?
 
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Good points, harddrive. I don't know how to respond to each of your points individually through quoting them, so...

Yes, better late than never! I don't think it's too late, as the 4K market is still relatively new. It might be getting crowded soon.

I would imagine a lot of people in the industry were surprised when the F5/55 appeared. I started a thread asking if Panasonic was making a mistake concentrating on the 2/3" market. With Arri's Amiga and the F5/55, perhaps so. Maybe the big sensor shoulder mount is the future of broadcast camera design?

1080P vs 4K? The Amiga is 2K/HD, so the Varicam isn't alone. I suppose there's still plenty of life left in the "standard" HD formats. I questioned the same thing in the Amiga thread, but most thought the lack of 4K wouldn't be a problem.

And the future of the AF100? I don't think there is one. It'll soldier on for awhile, but nothing revolutionary for the model.
But maybe the 4/3 sensor in a shoulder mount design? Perhaps like an HPX600 body, with an AVC-Ultra codec? Hmm...(still no 4K).
 
Suprised they went the S35 route and didnt stick with their 4/3 market for this one considering whats already in the S35 market. They are bringing their own proprietary media to the game and with the codecs.

As to the comments of "too late", possibly - but if they can deliver on image its never too late IMO.
 
vanvideo said:
Yes, better late than never! I don't think it's too late, as the 4K market is still relatively new. It might be getting crowded soon.
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What I was really getting at was that not long ago, in a particular market sector, (which I'll refer to as "the Varicam market") it was Panasonic and the Varicam that were undisputed masters, market leaders, call it what you will. And that sector was at the top end of the broadcast market, at least the documentary side.

And when that's the situation, it can be difficult for a rival to dislodge a company. As said before, it normally happens through technical innovation or delivering the same for a much lower cost. But with first Red, then Canon, then Sony, it became increasingly obvious that for this market sector the future was increasingly going to be 4k and increasingly s35. It staggers me that it's taken Panasonic so long to wake up to it - but they obviously now have (very late), hence the use of "prioritising" in the phrasing of the press release.

Trouble is - they are now the ones trying to break back in. They've lost most of the past dominance. Hence my feeling that any future product has to now be markedly better or markedly cheaper than the competition. That's difficult.
I would imagine a lot of people in the industry were surprised when the F5/55 appeared. I started a thread asking if Panasonic was making a mistake concentrating on the 2/3" market. With Arri's Amiga and the F5/55, perhaps so. Maybe the big sensor shoulder mount is the future of broadcast camera design?
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I disagree. Big sensor video probably really started to become mainstream when shallow dof on DSLRs was first "discovered" by many. And Red did a lot to move it out from DSLRs and into higher quality cameras.

It would seem that Canon, Sony and Panasonic all took some note - but whereas Sony and Canon went down a line of purpose designed chips and used them in a range of cameras, and got 4k ability at the same time, Panasonic contented themselves with fundamentally packaging the GH1/2 innards in a video housing. That was far from a silly approach, pretty clever at the time really - but it should always only have been a stop gap until the R&D had caught up and they had also got a high spec 4k large sensor.

I'd also disagree that it has to be 2/3" OR a large sensor. It's horses for courses. Sony haven't neglected the 2/3" or 1080 HD markets to bring the F5/55 out - just look at the PMW400, or the PMW300 for that matter.
1080P vs 4K? The Amiga is 2K/HD, so the Varicam isn't alone. I suppose there's still plenty of life left in the "standard" HD formats. I questioned the same thing in the Amiga thread, but most thought the lack of 4K wouldn't be a problem.
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There's a HUGE amount of life left in "standard" HD formats - but my feeling is not at the top end. Not at what I described as "the Varicam market".

And that's where the Amira (I assume "Amiga" is a misprint? :) ) is likely to sit comfortably. As long as priced accordingly. I would also expect to hear about a 4k camera from Arri before too long (NAB?), I can't believe they're not working on such. Though they're likely to play any thoughts down before any announcement.

Likewise for news and a lot of other run of the mill broadcast material, expect to see "standard" HD cameras for a long time. But that isn't "the Varicam market". THAT is where 4k will become increasingly the norm, where the big money is. Expect to see HD only cameras on sale for a long time to come - just not at Varicam prices. Also bear in mind that a 4k camera doesn't have to be used for 4k all the time. You can easily use a 4k capable camera for HD, but you can't use an HD camera for 4k!
And the future of the AF100? I don't think there is one. It'll soldier on for awhile, but nothing revolutionary for the model.
But maybe the 4/3 sensor in a shoulder mount design? Perhaps like an HPX600 body, with an AVC-Ultra codec? Hmm...(still no 4K).
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The AF100 was a clever idea at the time, but most people saw it as a stop gap to get a large sensor video camera out rapidly to compete with DSLR video. That it is still the only such camera marketed by Panasonic so much further on is what surprises people. (Especially after all the s35 competition from Sony and Canon.)

As for 4/3, I still think it's an evolutionary dead end, except in video stills cameras. If you want one set of attributes, just go all the way to s35. If your needs are different, go for 2/3".

The Panasonic 4k Varicam announcement is a clear sign they are going s35 for their high end cameras. Whereas Sony and Canon have been able to leverage economies of scale by using the same or similar chips across the C100/300/500 type ranges, Panasonic can only do anything comparable by similarly using s35 for an "AF200". I just do not see them developing a purpose designed 4k video chip for such a "AF200" camera, and there is little likelihood of getting anything like decent 4k out of a "designed for stills" sensor.
 
Isn't the SDI output of the FS700 also 8bit? I have an AF100 and I'd be happy to switch over to s35. I think that the m4/3 is worthy but I'd rather have the s35. This sounds very promising and if this camera has the great feature set, build quality and reliability of the AF100 I would be happy to re-up to a Panasonic camera.
 
David W. Jones said:
How do you figure?

The camera has an HD-SDI output giving one the ability to capture uncompressed 4:2:2
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422 is 8bit only, never had a clear answer if the new 100A is 8 or 10 bit. MFT sensor in BMDCC and PC cameras is selling like crazy, and these cameras lack certain wonderful features like ND filters or even sound meters. I wish Panasonic just bought the guts of BMDCC and shove it into AF100 body, but 13 Fstops DR and 10bit ready to edit true 10 bit ProRes HQ produces image quality impossible to beat at the price range. I think corporations like Canon , Panasonic or JVC ought to start listening to what this segment of the market really wants. Most definately what they offer at the moment is not what is on my want list.
 
snowblindfilm said:
422 is 8bit only
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again, not to belabor the point, but that's what everybody outputs. Even the FS700 is 8-bit only. Even the C300 is 8-bit only. 10-bit is not only not common, it's downright rare, especially under $15,000...

never had a clear answer if the new 100A is 8 or 10 bit.
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It is 8 bit data up-rezzed to 10 bits.

I wish Panasonic just bought the guts of BMDCC and shove it into AF100 body, but 13 Fstops DR and 10bit ready to edit true 10 bit ProRes HQ produces image quality impossible to beat at the price range.
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I've told them to do exactly that -- but to put on an OLPF to get rid of the aliasing.

I think corporations like Canon , Panasonic or JVC ought to start listening to what this segment of the market really wants. Most definately what they offer at the moment is not what is on my want list.
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Once upon a time Panasonic listened very closely to what we wanted. Consequently, they became extremely popular. Right now, not so much.
 
snowblindfilm said:
Sony EX1 for one, you can pick one up for around 3K on eBay now.
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Sony EX1 for one, as in, it's only one of two at all under $13,000; the HPX250 is also 10-bit. Except I think there's an NX5 or something that also has it. And that's IT. That's the entire market of 10-bit camcorder outputs under $13,000 that I can think of.

Just pointing out that no matter how common people seem to think 10-bit is, or how easy they think it would be to implement, the fact remains that 10-bit camcorders simply don't exist in any substantial quantity at all.
 
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