Panasonic 4K GH4 possibly coming next Spring...
- Thread starter Nicholas Natteau
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joe 1008
Veteran
Some new wind in the sails of this rumor @ asia.nikkei.com :
"The company will focus on mirrorless single-lens models, with the diminutive 274-gram Lumix GM set to go on sale Thursday and another device capable of capturing 4K ultra-high-definition video also slated for development."
"The company will focus on mirrorless single-lens models, with the diminutive 274-gram Lumix GM set to go on sale Thursday and another device capable of capturing 4K ultra-high-definition video also slated for development."
Mike Harvey
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joe 1008
Veteran
Is it NAB yet?
Who knows? Rumors are rumors (though they seem to condense into something real)...
There's no doubt there's going to to be 4K DSLRs released by the Japanese manufacturers. Sony already said they're working on this, as has Panasonic. The question is what specs, and when? My guess is that most if not all of them will be 8 bit 4:2:0 4K internal recording, with 8 bit 4:2:2 output to external devices. Consumerish.
visugeek
Well-known member
philiplipetz
Veteran
I was under the impression that the 4K broadcast standard had an expanded color space with 4:2:2 as the base.
I think you may be getting confused between colour sub-sampling and colour space.
The latter refers to how accurately a system represents a given colour to the eye - does a red still look red on the screen, or is it becoming orangish? It's a fundamental problem with using 3 values (of R,G,B) to represent the full spectrum. There are some pure spectral colours that can't be accurately represented within the current system - only approximated to. The idea of expanding the colour space is to improve the situation - make colours truer to life. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space for a fuller explanation.)
Colour sub-sampling refers to the relative sharpness of the colour detail relative to luminance. It's quite possible to have a relatively unsharp chroma image with colours that are very true to life, and vice versa.
And remember that 4:2:0 4K has four times the luminance pixels of 4:2:2 HD - but also twice the chrominance as well. In other words, a 4:2:0 system with MORE colour detail information than a 4:2:2 one. Such numbers (4:2;2, 4:2;0 etc) are ratios, not absolutes, and only make sense for comparisons when all else is equal.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Plus a single pixel is so small with 4k it gets harder to tell the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0. When we moved from SD to HD many were surprised by how much better 4:2:0 HD was to work with since the chroma pixels were already so much smaller. With 4k it gets even better and the human eye is going to have a hard time really telling the difference.
Plus when you factor in all these 4k cameras for awhile will only be using a single 4k sensor and you factor in the bayer sensor it is debatable how much color detail you gain over 4:2:0 anyway. Of course it is more but no where near a solid 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 anyway. software upsampled 4:2:0 4k may be almost as good until we get 3 chip or 8k sensors.
Alvise Tedesco
Well-known member
Any news? Did not went thru all the pages. Did ever Jan or Barry confirmed Panasonic is going to finally come back with the mojo on a compact competitive modern camera?
I want so bad a 3 axis gimbal, but my only very decent camera is a Scarlet and I'd really prefer to save my back..
I want so bad a 3 axis gimbal, but my only very decent camera is a Scarlet and I'd really prefer to save my back..
No confirmation from Panasonic US that I know of, but last week 43rumors had two more updates:
Two more sources confirm "GH4k" to be announced in first half of 2014 (Ed: NAB?), and that the previously rumored specs are very close to the actual: http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-short-updated-new-gh-4k-is-coming-first-half-of-2014-and-so-the-new-omd/
This seems to have prompted them to upgrade the probability of the rumor to "FT5=81-99% chance the rumor is correct"
(Translated) Interview with Panasonic Manager Ichiro Kitao where he supposedly "confesses" that the "GH4k" is likely to come in 2014: http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-interview-at-dc-watch-confesses-the-4k-gh-is-likely-to-come/
This second link is pretty iffy, because the 43rumors writer (who I am pretty sure is not a native English-speaker) is basing this on a Google translation of a Japanese interview. I read the translated interview that he or she linked, and found it nearly impossible to make heads or tails from it. Google still has a lot of work to do on translating Japanese properly. They seem to do much better with European languages. Anyway, to me it appears that he is actually saying the opposite, that it will NOT be in 2014, and I found at least one film gear blog that seems to agree with me. What would be great would be if someone who can read Japanese well could translate that section. Even so, who is to say that the interview is accurately reproducing what he actually said?
I would have posted these last week, but didn't want to resurrect this thread just for this.
Two more sources confirm "GH4k" to be announced in first half of 2014 (Ed: NAB?), and that the previously rumored specs are very close to the actual: http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-short-updated-new-gh-4k-is-coming-first-half-of-2014-and-so-the-new-omd/
This seems to have prompted them to upgrade the probability of the rumor to "FT5=81-99% chance the rumor is correct"
(Translated) Interview with Panasonic Manager Ichiro Kitao where he supposedly "confesses" that the "GH4k" is likely to come in 2014: http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-interview-at-dc-watch-confesses-the-4k-gh-is-likely-to-come/
This second link is pretty iffy, because the 43rumors writer (who I am pretty sure is not a native English-speaker) is basing this on a Google translation of a Japanese interview. I read the translated interview that he or she linked, and found it nearly impossible to make heads or tails from it. Google still has a lot of work to do on translating Japanese properly. They seem to do much better with European languages. Anyway, to me it appears that he is actually saying the opposite, that it will NOT be in 2014, and I found at least one film gear blog that seems to agree with me. What would be great would be if someone who can read Japanese well could translate that section. Even so, who is to say that the interview is accurately reproducing what he actually said?
I would have posted these last week, but didn't want to resurrect this thread just for this.
Let's imagine a different scenario then, one where Panasonic built the camera that people wanted to buy. A camera whose specs were so impressive that rumours couldn't exaggerate them and people couldn't be disappointed. A camera that cannibalized Panasonic's own business so that Panasonic's competitors couldn't. Then the camera would have 4k at 60 fps or more and 4:2:2 and 10-bit and h.265, with an accessory that adds XLR ports and SDI ports and everything else. And no matter what the bloggers predicted, consumers would be deliriously happy because the camera would be the best deal on the marketplace with all the features that consumers wanted and they would buy it in droves.
The rumours sites are essentially free market research. The good ones tell you want people want to buy. Companies that deliver to their rumors will succeed, like Sony. Companies that fail to deliver to their rumors will fail, like Panasonic is at serious risk for doing.
The rumours sites are essentially free market research. The good ones tell you want people want to buy. Companies that deliver to their rumors will succeed, like Sony. Companies that fail to deliver to their rumors will fail, like Panasonic is at serious risk for doing.
Lovely idea, but how practical? It's great to sit back, think "what features do I want....?", then write them down....... but somewhere an engineer has to actually turn the wishes into reality. And strangely, it's often far more difficult than non-engineers think. Certainly when you take cost into account.
By and large, I fully agree with Barry's last post and sentiments. The only part I may disagree with is " Even if they're RIGHT, what good is it to you?"
*IF* they were right, it may be very useful to get advance notice of the next big thing. Avoid purchasing the earlier model, just before the new thing comes out!
But the point is academic anyway - accurate rumours still may not be what the manufacturers would want, for obvious reasons, but most of the rumour sites simply don't have a very good reputation for being right in the first place!
If rumor sites told you what was coming down the pipe with the next week or two, then they would serve a purpose. But even if they are correct, the way it goes is that any "game changer" products will never be in your hands for another six months to a year. I think a lot of the speculation and rumor-ing on dvxuser and on blogs as a whole is counter productive. It places gadgetry and technicals over filmmaking and artistry. Yes, I realize this is technical board, but the best way to learn the technicalities of filmmaking is to actually take a camera in hand, learn it, and shoot with it. There's just so many good cameras on the market right NOW there's really no excuse for you to wait.
the problem with these sort of rumors is that it creates an unrealistic price point, in people's heads.
There are people out there, including well known bloggers, who are speaking of this $2k, 4K camera as fact.... If and when Panasonic release something with this spec, but at a resonable $10k+ or so, in a proper body (which is more likely) then there will be a backlash about this "inflated" price point... even though it was made up from the start.
There are people out there, including well known bloggers, who are speaking of this $2k, 4K camera as fact.... If and when Panasonic release something with this spec, but at a resonable $10k+ or so, in a proper body (which is more likely) then there will be a backlash about this "inflated" price point... even though it was made up from the start.
Ok, I don't know if your replies are mostly in reaction to my post, but regardless, here are a couple of thoughts:
First, the rumors all along have said that this product will come out of Panasonic's professional division, not the consumer division. The rumored price is 2799 Euro, which at the exchange rate as of this minute, is 3,853 US Dollars, which is far from $2k. In other words, don't think of this as a replacement to the GH3, but something more along the lines of an AF100 in a GH3/BMCC/DSLR body format.
Second, as to the benefits of rumors, or lack thereof, each person can, and does, decide for him or herself. I get it that it can be damaging for companies. But for some consumers of camera gear, it's fun to dream and speculate about the next big thing, even if they have no actual plan to buy the product. For others, rumors can actually be empowering in a way, because it takes some power (of information) from the companies and places it on the consumers' hands, helping them have a little more data to base their near-term purchasing decisions on.
Most professionals are not likely to delay their decision to buy gear that they need for projects right now based on rumors, but it may play at least a small factor in helping them decide whether or not to make a major investment in the next six months, for example, if they can wait. Aren't most professionals in "NAB standby mode" anyway for camera gear purchases as soon as the year turns, or soon thereafter?
First, the rumors all along have said that this product will come out of Panasonic's professional division, not the consumer division. The rumored price is 2799 Euro, which at the exchange rate as of this minute, is 3,853 US Dollars, which is far from $2k. In other words, don't think of this as a replacement to the GH3, but something more along the lines of an AF100 in a GH3/BMCC/DSLR body format.
Second, as to the benefits of rumors, or lack thereof, each person can, and does, decide for him or herself. I get it that it can be damaging for companies. But for some consumers of camera gear, it's fun to dream and speculate about the next big thing, even if they have no actual plan to buy the product. For others, rumors can actually be empowering in a way, because it takes some power (of information) from the companies and places it on the consumers' hands, helping them have a little more data to base their near-term purchasing decisions on.
Most professionals are not likely to delay their decision to buy gear that they need for projects right now based on rumors, but it may play at least a small factor in helping them decide whether or not to make a major investment in the next six months, for example, if they can wait. Aren't most professionals in "NAB standby mode" anyway for camera gear purchases as soon as the year turns, or soon thereafter?
Barry, I understand and respect your perspective, and just ask that you understand the perspective of some people who follow rumor sites. I'm not some big rumor-spreader or big defender of rumor sites and rumor readers, but I think that your (and others') criticisms of those sites and readers sometimes seem harsher than they deserve. I like to take a balanced approach to them. I understand that rumors may not be interesting to some people, but I hope that those people can at least understand that others do get something out of it. The proliferation of camera rumor sites for every which brand and type of camera seems to show that there's an audience for it.
Regarding accuracy, there is a big gap between 0% accuracy and 100% accuracy. I imagine that most people who read rumor sites understand that the further out the rumor, the less accurate it will be, and also that completely wild, baseless speculation often gets posted. I hadn't heard of the rumors you mention, but it's not all complete BS all the time. Just to get an idea I went back to see what the GH3 rumors looked like. By about 5 months before official announcement, the main things they seemed fairly certain about were that it was going to have a weather-sealed magnesium body and that some of the major improvements would be ergonomics, better EVF and faster AF. They also dropped the global shutter rumor around this time, and were expecting the announcement around Photokina. All of these turned out to be fairly accurate, even though some tidbits were off (like the body being "skinnier" and "lighter" than the GH2).
As for NAB, I was just trying to make the point that that show has a similar, and probably stronger effect on camera sales in the months ahead of the show than rumor sites do, before any official announcement of any new gear. I've never heard anyone say that they're going to hold off on their camera purchase based on some wild rumor, while I have heard many times people say that they hold off on a purchase in the months ahead of NAB, and recommend that others do the same.
Regarding accuracy, there is a big gap between 0% accuracy and 100% accuracy. I imagine that most people who read rumor sites understand that the further out the rumor, the less accurate it will be, and also that completely wild, baseless speculation often gets posted. I hadn't heard of the rumors you mention, but it's not all complete BS all the time. Just to get an idea I went back to see what the GH3 rumors looked like. By about 5 months before official announcement, the main things they seemed fairly certain about were that it was going to have a weather-sealed magnesium body and that some of the major improvements would be ergonomics, better EVF and faster AF. They also dropped the global shutter rumor around this time, and were expecting the announcement around Photokina. All of these turned out to be fairly accurate, even though some tidbits were off (like the body being "skinnier" and "lighter" than the GH2).
As for NAB, I was just trying to make the point that that show has a similar, and probably stronger effect on camera sales in the months ahead of the show than rumor sites do, before any official announcement of any new gear. I've never heard anyone say that they're going to hold off on their camera purchase based on some wild rumor, while I have heard many times people say that they hold off on a purchase in the months ahead of NAB, and recommend that others do the same.
Hi Barry, no reason to be sorry - I didn't think you were denigrating me or anyone else. Instead I recognize that we have different views on these sites and how accurate or useful they are. I do see even better now where you're coming from, what with having to constantly deal with people being misinformed and misled by what they read on the rumors sites and believing that it's all true. I suppose that those sites should come with huge "reader beware" warnings, but what can we do? You would think that it would be clear by the "rumors" in the sites' names that that's exactly what they're getting.
I actually share your feelings about junk cable news and most TV news in the US nowadays, but I think that these sites are more like a "National Enquirer" or similar type of source in that they generally don't pretend to be proven reliable, fact-checked news. Contrast that with something like most TV news, where I'm constantly disappointed by sources that pretend that they're serious news that instead fill the air with celebrity gossip and other inane non-news. I think that that's a lot more harmful in general.
Regardless, I will avoid posting links to rumors here from now on (even though I never did much of it). I say this with no hurt feelings or anything like that, but just a better understanding that many of this forum's users feel that these types of rumors are not a very useful or valuable contribution.
Thanks for the discussion and for helping me understand that.
I actually share your feelings about junk cable news and most TV news in the US nowadays, but I think that these sites are more like a "National Enquirer" or similar type of source in that they generally don't pretend to be proven reliable, fact-checked news. Contrast that with something like most TV news, where I'm constantly disappointed by sources that pretend that they're serious news that instead fill the air with celebrity gossip and other inane non-news. I think that that's a lot more harmful in general.
Regardless, I will avoid posting links to rumors here from now on (even though I never did much of it). I say this with no hurt feelings or anything like that, but just a better understanding that many of this forum's users feel that these types of rumors are not a very useful or valuable contribution.
Thanks for the discussion and for helping me understand that.
