You'd better read the article. What you said is simply not true.
GH5 Pana President=we will enhance GH5 performance firmware "if there is customer demand"
- Thread starter radtex
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You'd better read the article. What you said is simply not true.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
It is indeed somewhat lossy but if care has been taken the impact is negligible and definitely of a totally different level than the impact of chroma subsampling.
Since you seem to think that the RGB to Y'CbCr 444 conversion is so very destructive I am wondering about your workflow and how you have even compared the two?
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I think it is a bit of a stretch to think RGB is just around the corner and that the few obscure formats you listed are in any way expected to be some kind of norm. Many of those formats have been around for at least a decade and yet we don't have an RGB camera.
This is all really splitting hairs and honestly most people can't tell the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2. As a former VFX artist I would love to see RGB but really we have RGB. It is called raw. Plenty of raw cameras out there and I honestly don't see the point of yet another in between format with little to no support. Besides RGB from a bayer sensor is a complete waste of space. Raw in a way is a compressed form of RGB. It has much less values than a full RGB format and the raw format allows those RGB gaps to be recorded correctly and rebuilt. Converting raw to RGB in camera just creates a lot of extra RGB values without actually increasing the quality. If you want RGB then you use raw because it is the absolute best RGB value you can get from a single sensor camera design. Having an uncompressed or lossless RGB format is just a complete waste unless you introduce heavy lossy image compression.
Show me a visually lossless RGB heavily compressed format with sizes similar to H264 that has universal support and then maybe it could be a reality but really we have plenty of raw options out there. Not sure why this is even needed anymore. I would take raw over a hacked RGB conversion from raw in camera any day.
Video is video and conforms to a universal video standard. A video camera should widely conform to those standards. If you need more then you use a raw camera. Simple as that really.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
Raw and RGB are not identical, at least not for a Bayer sensor.
To go from the sensor output of a Bayer sensor to RGB you only have one color per pixel available, the other two colors have to be interpreted from neighboring pixels but this interpretation introduces a notion of a practical color space because the values have to be weighted.
Even RGB or Y'CrCb 444 has already a reduced color resolution, in practical terms about 50-60%.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
thats exactly why I said RGB is a waste from a single sensor camera. There isn't a RGB value for every pixel so why bother recording RGB. Raw is the RGB format we all want and need and any other RGB format is a unnecessary weird in between step unless somebody invents a RGB form of compression with the efficiency of something like H264 or HEVC. Recording RGB at 150mbps might be appealing for some but honestly I just don't see the point. Those that actually need RGB video data wouldn't touch that level of compression with a ten foot pole. Honestly the level of compression on some raw formats is already enough. Lets not force the industry down a ridiculous path just to please a handful of nerds.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Few things to take into consideration here. I greatly enjoy Charles Ponyton but his 2.75million colors was in regards to 16-235 8bit SD rec601 video and not 10bit 0-255 rec709 video from the GH5. We have a ton more colors then the video format Charles was writing about back then. Plus if you shoot a format like 10bit V-log you really are not in the rec709 color space and are able to recover a lot more unique RGB values in post. It is why shooting a format like V-log allows us to deliver rec709, rec601, rec2020, p3, HLG or any other color space format. as long as you have log in 10bit you can grade to create a pretty accurate wide range of colors. At least enough to match the 16million colors of 8bit RGB that Charles talked about. I think if you learn how to massage 10bit v-log properly you will be amazed just how close you can get to 8bit RGB. If you need more than that then like I said there are tons of cameras out there now with raw support which is really the best RGB you will ever get out of a single sensor camera.
joe12south
Veteran
It's academically lossy, but not in a manner that has practical impact. You're being pedantic. YCbCr 4:4:4 stands up to the very most demanding keys.
I think something got lost in the translation. I didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers, and if I did, I apologize.
RAW is of course the feature we all want. But if for some reason Panasonic is unwilling or unable to implement it in the GH5, all I was suggesting is RGB would be the next best thing.
I would hope that’s something we could all agree upon.
RAW is of course the feature we all want. But if for some reason Panasonic is unwilling or unable to implement it in the GH5, all I was suggesting is RGB would be the next best thing.
I would hope that’s something we could all agree upon.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well -- they certainly would, if they had evidence that it would increase sales 10x or so. Look at the obvious -- the $60,000 VariCam 3700 is gone. The $18,000 VariCam LT obliterated it, at less than 1/3 the price. And the $7,500 EVA1 does a lot of what everyone needs, at less than half that price. They will certainly put big features in low cost cameras -- but they have to see the quantity of sales it will generate, to justify it. But just a few guys on an internet board demanding the sky on a low-cost camcorder, no, they're not going to do that.
Look -- here's the thing nobody wants to hear, but it's true. CUSTOMER demand is not the same thing as POPULAR demand. Customer demand is something like 10 film schools going up to them and saying "we'd buy 10,000 of these for our schools and require them for our students, but we can't because our editing team absolutely requires SMPTE timecode." So Panasonic does the math and says "hmm, the effort to put in to create SMPTE timecode will be justified because the additional sales will definitely outweigh the development costs."
Customer demand is not one guy on the internet stamping his foot because they didn't put 4:4:4 recording or 64-bit audio in.
Panasonic is usually great at listening to actual customer demand. We, the collective internet, and the collective film industry, demanded true 24p in an affordable camera. They delivered the DVX100, and it was their biggest hit ever, and they followed it up with the HVX200. That was a case of customer demand.
Another case of customer demand was adding the 8-megabit, 720p PM AVCHD mode to their cameras. WHAT?!?! Who wants that, you ask? Well, college sports facilities needed a low-bitrate, high-frame-rate 720p mode for coaching analysis systems. You might say "but nobody cares -- we all want an S35 16-bit 24-stop HDR camera for $300, why won't they listen to us?!?!" Because college sports facilities are HUGE business. There are thousands of colleges, and the sports department budgets are sometimes gigantic, and these were actual paying customers who would not buy without the feature, and committed to buy with the feature. So the real actual paying customer demanded, and the company responded. Exactly as you would expect capitalism to work.
That's what customer demand means. It doesn't mean a few individuals making their own wishlists. It means a change so big that the customer won't buy the product without it. Customers quit buying cameras with small sensors, so -- voila -- Panasonic now makes pretty much all giant sensor cameras. Even their low-cost UX90 has a 1" chip, 4x bigger than the 1/2" chip of the fabled large-sensor Sony EX1. Customers demanded 24p -- it's difficult to find any camera on the market now that doesn't offer 24p.
I'm not intending to rain on anyone's parade. I'm just trying to translate what the company means, so it makes sense to the folks here. Wishlists don't hurt, but they are also not orders to the company. The company will produce the product with the features that they believe the widest base of paying customers will pay the price that they want to charge -- and, more importantly, that customers will not pay if the product doesn't offer specific features. As long as you buy GH2s, GH3s, GH4s, GH5s, and GH5Ss, you're validating to them that they're doing it right. When you quit buying their product, it will let them know that there's something that you demand, that they're not offering. If GH5 and GH5s sales dropped to zero overnight because Canon introduced a DPAF competitor at the same price point, then that would be a clear case of signalling to them that the customer is demanding DPAF and will not settle for less (just to use one hypothetical example).
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Which is exaclty why they will be kicked out from the game in a one big blow! BANG!!! No rummors nor anouncments. just the blow.
The thing about modern manufacturing/merchants annd especialy electroncs world is that colapse happends out of blue. BOOOOOM!!!
I know people who bought shitload worth of equipment from CALUMET photo week before they closed all of their stores NATIONWIDE! BANG!!! just like that. Just like Samsung NX line of cameras. Just like gopro drones.
bye bye.
By the time Panasoniacs figure out what went wrong in their game (small compact high quality video hybrid camera suitable for all games), and while they analyze why they never became part of big game (cinema) and since game where they were somebody important will fall apart altogether (broadcast), it will be too late for them to do anything else but airconditions and battery chargers.
Unofrtunatly for us, the users, we will have to swallaw the pride and go back/elsewhere admitting that we wasted a decade wirh a manufacturer who had a golden hen and who's support we expected, alas, that never happened ...
Anybody trust words ofl this president shmuchk!?
Realy?
Well let me ask you something:
For how long Vesku is BEGGING for them to implent a simple info in the display? (My archive says its been 4 years in 3 different forums with one demand per month on average).
Are you saying panasoniacs have not heard him? They don't know what users realy want and demand? And what he asks is something so essential it should've been there from day 1.
Yet, they never made it happen.
Get real folks! stop believe in corporate lies!
Nail in the head!!
Bullseye!!
This is why I brag aroud and compain and nobody likes my comments because I rock their idilic view:
As long as you prais and support mediocre, underdeveloped, overpriced, meaningless product, and pay for it, you are prolonging the real PROGRESS to happen!!! all this GH5s sillyness saga is a experimet of how low can humans sense of selfworhlessness go..' How har are you willing to allow your common sense and inteligence to go!
Between GH13 and RAW 15 stop GH6 wished for camera, there was only exuse for 2012 camera with GH2-GH5/s features to exist. We wasted at least 5 years by tellign panasonic that the are doing good job. They Dont! The only reason why panasonic was my choice is because other are ever WORSE!!!
Guys, gopro has RAW video for last 5 years!?!!?!? BM Pocket has is for what, last 4 years!!!?!?! You're saying Panasonic should not had one?!
Stop encouraging JOB HALF DONE.
Ummm... I think you've got this backwards. It's the reason why Panasonic will still be around in 10 years, because they deliver innovation and can make money from it. Where GoPro who ignored their main consumer base for far too long, might not be here in a few years.
Panasonic's Varicam 35 and Varicam LT look pretty competitive, especially when you factor in their dual ISO with native 5000 ISO feature. The Varicam also seems to be one of the few cine camera brands that can compete with the ALEXA in terms of color.
How much is Canon, Nikon, or Sony listening to the needs of their video shooters ?
Simply by comparison, Panasonic is far ahead of the usual suspects.
Lastly, implementing RAW in a Panasonic GHx camera would be a great feature to have, but it won't do anything for Panasonic's bottom line.
i.e. the majority of GHx users don't need or want RAW recording, even the number of GHx LOG shooters is a pretty small group
Panasonic has to make money to stay alive, and they are going to do that by giving the majority of their users what they want, and the majority of their users are not cine shooters.
filmguy123
Veteran
While voting with your wallet is always effect, it's not enough on its own. On the contrary, I've often experienced a product line ceasing all together because X-company, in this case lets say Panasonic, might decide "there is no market for micro 43rds" rather than listen to the real reasons why a GHx camera underperformed.
TBH, my fear with GH5s is that it's going to underperform due to lack of IBIS and the Panasonic line will be "there was no demand for a lower resolution, higher sensitivity GHx camera". Which is bogus, but also a reasonable conclusion without vocal users petitioning and clearly communicating.
Unless we specifically petition for what we want or dislike, unintended side effects - either directly by the teams in charge, or those detached in the analytics departments calling shots purely on ROI - can occur. I've seen it with multiple product lines and pieces of software which, due to low sales, a company cuts instead of fixes.
So, vote with your wallet, but use your words. It's not always realistic or practical to boycott an entire product that may otherwise be useful yet imperfect, just to make a point so that the company can (hopefully) respond 2-3 years down the road.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I guess we will never know if the choice to go with top level cinema pros (no IBIS) over normal hybrid buyers (yes IBIS) will be a good one or not for Panasonic. In their minds they have a strategy that would push people to conveniently buy both the GH5 and GH5s as stated in the interview. Seems odd to fix a long standing deficit with M4/3rds (light gathering) but gear it towards higher end cinema production instead of the people that got you to this place. But I guess they can always come out with a GH5si in a year and make it all good.
You can try to influence these companies but in the end they do what they feel is best regardless. Panasonic is one of the best if not the best at putting in features that are needed and wanted. The GH5 really is a great camera including proper audio with the adapter. I have decided to only go for a GH5 now and pass on the GH5s as IBIS is a great tool. I will miss the 240fps and the clean image but I do not want to buy both at this time. So a vote with the wallet is my action at the present. Also hoping the GH5s will be recreated in a DVX300 this year at NAB...
You can try to influence these companies but in the end they do what they feel is best regardless. Panasonic is one of the best if not the best at putting in features that are needed and wanted. The GH5 really is a great camera including proper audio with the adapter. I have decided to only go for a GH5 now and pass on the GH5s as IBIS is a great tool. I will miss the 240fps and the clean image but I do not want to buy both at this time. So a vote with the wallet is my action at the present. Also hoping the GH5s will be recreated in a DVX300 this year at NAB...
I don't believe that's really going to happen to Panasonic, but my god, that was a great read!
Well said.
joe12south
Veteran
I actually don't buy into the belief that Panny only implements features that appeal to a large quantity of customers. If this was the case, we would not have a number of niche features that were added after the fact - anamorphic immediately springs to mind.
How many people *actually* shoot anamorphic? Very few. How visible is the feature? The PR value? Very high.
Photographers moving to video understand RAW - or at least they understand the value. RAW would be easy to market and have tremendous PR value. It's not completely outside of the range of moves Panny has made.
How many people *actually* shoot anamorphic? Very few. How visible is the feature? The PR value? Very high.
Photographers moving to video understand RAW - or at least they understand the value. RAW would be easy to market and have tremendous PR value. It's not completely outside of the range of moves Panny has made.
I'm waiting to see if Fuji releases a cinema camera like the rumors suggest. Hope it doesn't suck if it really materializes. Yes off topic, but I don't believe that Panasonic cares what we think anyway. If you aren't one of their special beta testers or maybe someplace like Hotrod cameras, your opinion probably doesn't matter. For the longest time, the engineers didn't even care what the USA company was requesting. They knew better than us stupid users over here in the USA. For the most part, the broadcast product lines are still pretty much this same way. Here's your camera, hope you like it because any requests you make will not happen. Sony, Panny, Ikegami, Hitachi, JVC, that's just how they operate.
