P2 off loading as a career?

crobs808 said:
$600 a day for p2 offloading? jeez. people are getting easy jobs and easy money these days. i have a college education, and not making 600 a day. any monkey can swap p2's, you dont wan that as a career choice, especially since 5 years from now we probably wont even be using p2's...the next generation of cameras will have built in harddrives (built in p2 cards basically), so i wouldnt set out on a career path of something so fleeting...this kind of stuff changes format every year. p2 cards in 5-10 years will be archaic.

-connor
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Mmm do realize that it's more than just swapping cards and offloading. The actual process is DIT, and you must know everything about the camera (and many more) to be trusted around Los Angeles. My rate is 500/day as DIT and yeah, I sit on my booty watching waves and vecs all day when I am DITing, by no means is it just a "monkey's" job.

You're responsible for how the Digital Image is captured, thus having to select the proper scene file, settings, offloading and archiving for maximum safety, and calling out when you see potential harmful flaws in scopes.

So, you've combined the Loader with Digital Image Consulting and now you're definitely worth 500 and up. My last Tech job saw me sitting in front of a garage for three hours and only offloading half a 16gb P2 Card. I got my day rate, they got the image they were looking for and the safety in knowing that I know what I'm doing.

And no, these people aren't stupid: They're just used to having their projects go the right way. That's called big money, that's called professional.
 
There is a definite culture clash on boards like DVXUser. You have working pros mingling with student/indie/guerilla low budget/no budget filmmakers. Nothing wrong with what either faction produces. But Indies and guerilla filmmakers are used to making small scale work that is rough in quality generally while pros are used to working on projects with large budgets that are expected to look slick. Creating slick takes big money and skills. Creating rough hewn doesn't take big money and it takes less skill.

The fact is, with all of the strikes, the dropping of theatrical and the dividing up of the media and entertainment markets, many pros will begin to see a drop in day rates. Yes, Hollywood is professional and pros make good day rates, but I am definitely getting pressure to accept projects for lower days rates AND for me to do the jobs of what used to be two to three people. It's happening to all of my friends and colleagues in the business as well.

When I shoot inteviews for a doc (this is a doc that will supposedly see theatrical release AND is already slated for DVD release) that I have been working on for six months, I am DP, Sound Mixer, P2 Tech, DIT AND I even have to do a bit of makeup. I don't get a sound mixer or makeup artist as I should. Is the sound as good as it would be if we had a sound mixer? No. Does the talent look as good as they would if we had a real makeup artist? Not even close, I am terrible at makeup, I just throw on some powder and comb their hair. But these are items that just don't seem that important to the producer or the exec producer who writes my check. I make a good day rate for myself and my camera package but they are saving probably $1.5k per day by hiring me and NOT hiring a sound mixer, makeup artist and PA. This is the reality of our industry right now. I totally agree with Barry that it is the newbies fresh from film school or self taught guerilla filmmakers who will offer the supposed same services and package that I have for $300.00 a day that are really killing doing this work for a living. In LA, it is ridiculous, read Craigslist or look at how many freebie requests there are on the LA Producer Group e-mail list. It's stupid and sad but it is the way this industry is going and will continue to go. Budgets will continue to shrink and those of us behind te camera will have to decide if we want to continue in this career, having to double and triple up on our skillsets for less money.

If we have a SAG strike, you will see many more pros who barely held on through the writers strike lose their homes, cars and will have to switch careers or start shooting weddings. And if they do bow out of the business, guess what, there are 5 billion more newbies who will come in at a poverty rate to TRY to do their same jobs. It's a cannabilistic industry. It's bad for working pros, good opportunity for the up and comers who will survive on poverty wages or live with mom and dad and don't need to make a living. Look at how many 20, 30 and even 40 somethings are moving back in with their parents, it's a huge social movement right now, it's on the front page of the NY TImes.

When I had my production company, I already went through the first wave of this. Back in the 90s, the average corporate video I was producing with a real gear (Beta SP/DBeta) and a real crew of probably 5-10 were budgeted at around an average of $50k to $100k. When the "DV Revolution" kicked in around the late 90s to early 2000s, those budgets shrunk down to $20 to $30k with a crew of 2-3. What is happening now is a continuation of that process. At some point, it will bottom out but the difference is, it is happening in Hollywood on all levels. Sure, there are still large productions with crews of hundreds but there are MANY less of them these days. And on the bread and butter levels, it is ridiculous. I have a DP friend who shoots a LOT of HGTV and TLC shows. At that level, it is usually him, a sound mixer and a producer, that's it. And the shows are all shot handheld. Try holding an 25lb HPX-900 rig on your shoulder for 8-9 hours a day! And they have added jib to a lot of them. So my friend is shooting 12-14 hour days by himself, mostly handheld and jib. It's physically exhausting. At least he gets a sound mixer but he is doing the work of 3-5 people. And it's going to stay the same, it's not going to get better.

As working pros, we have to face it, the producers will continue to low ball, hire unskilled or not as skilled crews and our wages will continue to fall while we have to do more for less.At some point, many crews will be lke the crews in "Bow Finger" only for real, I have already seen some crews and people in the "professional realm" that could have came from the on-screen crew in that film. I work in many different levels of the entertainment industry as a producer, DP, writer and occasionally director. I do BTS, EPK, DVD and lots of television docs and I see and speak with all different kinds of crews, productions. It's happening at all levels and will continue to happen.

It's the price we are all paying to do the job that we want to do.

Dan
 
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Barry is absolutely correct.

Back in the 90's here in San Diego, Tile and Stone Setters got paid mad cash (I used to set tile back in my 20's). Then, the laborers coming up from Mexico got into the field and just did exactly what Barry is saying, bottomfed it, low bid it nad everything became piecework (Slam as many jobs a day for as little cash) and just screwed up the industry as well as made shoddy work.

There's been a recent resurgence here with the creation of a Tile Setters Union in recent years and it's gotten a bit better

I'm rambling, but Barry is correct. There is a reason the best in the world get what they do.

It goes for every industry; music, sports, literature ...
 
Over here in Germany the correct name for "P2 offloading" is Media Asset Management. And the payment is usually around 1200€ a week.

In my opinion, 600 bucks a day is waaaaay underpayed... it is with everything in the business: The higher the risk, the higher the payment. If the P2 offloader messes things up, all the work of dozens of people will go to hell... just view it that way and think about if you want a 300$ monkey mess with your footage... ;)
 
Barry_Green said:
And it is not a good thing, and not something to be embraced or celebrated. Rather, it should be fought against.
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Barry:

I totally agree, but you should know that this stuff comes from the studios and cable networks and it all just rolls downhill. I don't see day rates and wages holding, they are heading downward and there are a lot of powerful people who seemingly think along very similar lines as JonathanLB unfortunately.

The various show formats that I work in and around are certainly seeing decreasing budgets with increasing specs and deadlines. I interviewed a bunch of sound mixers and editors for the upcoming article and their bosses I interviewed told me the same thing on their end (audio post), crews are cut, schedules are shorter and budgets are smaller, yet they are expected to do the same amount and quality of work they were doing five years ago. It's the industry as a whole unfortunately. As we all know, the real money is now in video games and filmed entertainment as a whole is siginificantly less and will keep decreasing in profits and sales as an industry, it's been that way for, what, the past three or four years?

It's just like the transition from film to HD for episodic and tv movies, a lot of powerful producers only supported the transition because their incorrect perception was that HD was "video so it needed less lighting" hence, smaller crew, grip and lighting packages, plus no stock to buy, no lab and telecine. The real motivation is that producers liked this idea so that they could put more profit into their pockets. As we all know, to make HD look as good as film, you need at least the same crew, grip and lighting and usually more time to tame blown highlights, etc. 2nd AC becomes the DIT. You still need a tape to tape and or DI at the end.

Judging by what you mostly see on tv and in theaters, I think that the craft is somewhat going away a bit too. Do it faster, cheaper but put a lot of flash and stupid looking CGI in to appease the audience. As the craft slowly ebbs away, they can hire cheaper and less experienced people to man the positions.

I wish I was wrong but it is stuck in my face almost every week, no matter which set or which DP, director, actor I am interviewing.

Best,

Dan
 
Ha! C´mon Angel. We now some German Managers that almost chrashed the company, fired thousands of poeple and did serious tax fraud. They make insane money, mess everything up and when they leave they get an extra 5 millions plus a Limo with driver.

What about a good car mechanik or a book keeper? Isn´t the mechanic who does your brakes a professionall with the risk that you get killed if he messes it up? Is the book keeper not responsible for all those families that need pay checks? Is he less professionall than a DP, DIT or P2 Monkey?

Do they earn 600 or more a day?

It is the strange attitude of some film poeple (especialy Hollwood) that they think that they are more worthy and qualified than everybody else - and so they have the right to get make more cash in a week than everybody else in a month.

Even if it is only for the simple task to make sure that they don´t erase the material when they offload P2 cards.


Frank
 
Barry, Hudson, Angel, Dan, etc. are all correct.

I've made grrrrrreat money working as a DIT on various shoots. I currently specialize in and enjoy working with Panasonic's P2 technology. A big part of my DIT work is offloading the cards, yes. There are other parts too: knowing the finer aspects of the camera when I'm asked for help and carefully mirroring the footage for redundancy while verifying all the data's integrity. Very easy to lose track of this stuff when you are dealing with multiple cards simultaneously from multiple cameras. And there might only be one laptop. Can you say "bottleneck?" It takes someone with organizational skills who is technical and efficient, not to mention paying extreme attention to detail. No one wants to trust a "monkey" with irreplaceable footage.

As time goes on, I can roll with the incremental changes in the P2 workflow and the eventual evolution of it into something else entirely.
 
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Don't Forget gents...

That freelancers and many others get paid nice wages in this industry but it is often inconsistent.

You think it is unfair that someone make 600.00 a day but they may only work 10 or 15 days out of a given month.

I made 5 figures during March of this year. and only a couple hundred bucks last month. Working production jobs is not always consistent. The higher wages help the artists from gig to gig.



I
 
jason.adams said:
Don't Forget gents...

That freelancers and many others get paid nice wages in this industry but it is often inconsistent.

You think it is unfair that someone make 600.00 a day but they may only work 10 or 15 days out of a given month.

I made 5 figures during March of this year. and only a couple hundred bucks last month. Working production jobs is not always consistent. The higher wages help the artists from gig to gig.



I
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Amen.

Dan
 
Id definitely have to agree that when I come onto a project as a freelancer in some sort of position , I 'm expecting to get paid not just for the position I'm doing, but for my time as a whole. becuase why on earth would I take a fly by night 3 day gig making 100 per day, when I could take a real 1 day gig and make at least $600.00 ? I mean if its a favor or something thats one thing, but otherwise ive just spent 3 days effectively spreading the news that Im not worth any real money. and making the productions that actually keep my family fed harder to come by.

I could understand if I'm just a kid with a brand new DVX and I dont have any real experience or skill to shake a stick at which and im looking for experience. but thats the difference between a professional production, and a low/no budget indy or school project. a professional production certainly isnt going to hire the kid with a camera, and they shouldnt be asking a working professional to work for the same wages as they can get some newb kid with a camera for. ..as if they can just say "well, we found this one guy who will do it for 100 a day so thats what were offering or well just go with him" .. ok then. go with him. im not about to let people think that they can get professional work for the same price as some guy off the street. and thier production will suffer for it.

..im so tired of hearing that "anyone can do this" or "anyone can do that"..
Im sorry but if "anyone can do it" then why does 99% of every indy production ever made suck so bad, while 95% of every professional production is done really really well. its not that your always going to get what you pay for, but its that if you want a certain something, you need to pay for it. belive me I would be among the first to shout if from the rooftops when I find a little trick or shortcut to do things cheap with professional results, but while in the right situations you can replace a real tank with a model, and a costly CG effect with some practical effect and compositing knowledge ...one thing you can never substitute is the knowledge and skill of a working professional, for someone who just wants to make a quick buck.


if theres one HUGE thing i have learned the hard way in my years of filmmaking it is that knowledge and experience are worth more than anything. you can get by if you have to with a little decent gear and a small experienced and knowledgeable crew and make a good production, but you will never get by with all the clueless crew in the world, and all the very best gear.

..so why would i spend 1200.00 on a mic and use someone who doesnt know how to professionally operate a boom? ive just given my production an audio death sentance. ..you see , if you want to talk real value. the most valuable things in your entire production isnt the camera or the mic or the lights or all that stuff. ..its the people that sit behind the camera, and behind the mic , and set up the lights, and edit, and act, and so on. because a good boom op will get you great sound with a cheap mic. and someone who can efficiently offload P2 cards is worht thier wieght in gold to me because its one more thing that I can relax and know its being professionally handled and I can concentrate on directing, or the next production setup or something else aside from if my data is ok. that way im much more likely to do a better job at the hats im wearing which are extremely important. its just a case of whether your production can afford it or not. if you cant, you cant, and you do the best you can, but if you can afford it, it would be silly not to in my opionion. you should give yourself every opportunity for success you can, and stop trying to cut corners to keep a couple hundred bucks here or there that could very potentially distroy everything.
 
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JonathanLB said:
Yeah but Dan, to me it sounds like you were doing a lot more real work than just every hour or two taking a card and transferring it. That's a job that a well trained monkey could do. But you were handling an entire workflow with a lot of complicated tasks going on there to make post-production work easier, at least that's what it sounds like.

But yes, $600 a day is ridiculous. I love producers who have no idea what things cost. They make great producers. Not. This attitude needs to stop in Hollywood, it's great for the people getting overpaid but it's wasteful and hurts the bottom line. Hire the best people you can for the cheapest rates, that should always be the goal. No use overpaying people for simple jobs, or even for complicated ones. It's like makeup artists making $1,200 a day, it's absolutely absurd unless they're doing all kinds of blood / gore work that only they can do this well. But to pay a makeup artist for a music video that much money to do some basic makeup is just silly beyond belief. I can get someone to do just as good of a job for $300 without worrying about whether they're good or not. I could get it for $150 but I'd be more worried if they were really any good. Even so, so what, hire 2-3 at that rate, let them work together, christ, still better than $1,200 for something like that. It's all about complexity. If you are going to pay someone to do zombie makeup, ok, I get it, hire the best if you can afford it. But if you're going to pay someone to put on some concealer and mascara, honestly, any 14-year-old girl can do that.
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Dude... I live in NYC. This is where alot of the work on the East coast is. ( and i was born here so its home... i cant just go some where cheaper)

I have 2900$ a month in expenses. and thats JUST bills. THis is not including food, leisure, GAS, etc... I have NO health insurance, and just barely survive.

Like Jason Adams said, in march i worked 1 day. one. and that was HVX bootcamp. in april i worked 4 days. However it was enough to cover 2 months of living. Im totaly in agrement with his point.


Also,

What part of the country do you live in thats so cheap that 150$ a day for a freelancer is considered fair?

I make 2,000$ a day sometimes, these are usually gigs where i get a real grip truck... there are craft services...... The pa's arent working for free..... but these jobs are very few and far between. Especially for a young DOP/ Editor / P2 loader etc... it doesnt matter. The high price jobs are rare nowadays.

Do you want to know why thoes jobs are few and far between? because some folks will work 15 hour days for 200$. And, im talking DOP's. ITs ludicrous. They will cut rate to the bone, just to get a job. Prices this low, are so enticing to some people that regardless of the hard work that is put in to a product by talented, and professional individuals, the producers will accept these people on their crews. The REALLY sad thing is this. some of these undercutters, are talented shooters. They are just out of college, and looking to get a name. But they soon learn the way things really work.

I was lucky in that i wa connected to an AD ajency right out of school, and was shooting on real sets, out of college.



didjman said:
I'm a newbie looking to explore the possibility of doing P2 off loading for a living. I have an extensive audio background and some PA and pc experience and would like to know if any shooters or production companies would hire a person just for that task. I've been scouring this forum and other sites gleening all the info I can regarding the process and have a friend that does location audio who suggested there's a need for this type of work, as cameramen may not want that responsibility. I'm also wondering what the best gear would be for this purpose, Mac Book Pro with Final Cut Pro and multiple portable hard drives?
Also, what would companies be willing to pay for this service? I realize that many companies use whoever is available on the shoot. Would this service be of value to them? And what would be the longevity of this career as technology/demand may make current and future P2 cards cheaper, making it more affordable to just buy a bunch and download them after the shoot rather than rotating cards during the shoot? If anybody could offer any advice I'd be eternally grateful as I have to get out of the life-sucking job I currently have.
Thanks folks!:undecided
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Also man, think about moving up to bigger than P2 media management. In NYC good DIT's are in HIGH demand. Theres a million DP's, maybe 500 of them are good, and like 20 DIT's and like 20 of them good just cause they have so much practice....
 
I hired a DIT for a shoot late last year for a Varicam, no P2 offloading and I paid him $800.00 per day plus OT and was happy to get him. All of the other 15-20 "A" list DITs in LA were booked and many wouldn't even return calls to hire them.

P2 tech - not really a promising career path
DIT/AC - really good career path.

Cameras will always need to adjusted, tested, tweaked, painted and cameras for the foreseeable future will need ACs to pull focus and iris.

Dan
 
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