P2 Leaves Door Wide Open For Others.

As hard drives become faster and bandwidth increases then so does the speed of a P2 transfer.
The P2 speed is already there; it's just waiting for hard drives to catch up. . .
 
Wadro said:
I still use my XL1 which I got in 1997. That is 8 years ago. We still have DV tape. Do you think PCMCIA card or slots will be around 8 years from now? I hardly think so. Once the camera is out were stuck. Just hoping Panasonic will add at least one expresscard slot before they mass produce it, By then the one P2 Expresscard will be plenty big and we don't have to buy the HVX200a which has the new Expresscard upgrade.
Click to expand...

Yet another asinine statement. Why would you contradict yourself in your own post? If you've had you XL1 since 97 and still use DV, then why do you assume PCMCIA won't be around much longer? In that case you are saying EXPRESSCARDS won't be around much longer either. Why? Because PCMCIA is an *organization* that develops the standards. It is not a Standard itself!! PC CARD, CARDBUS, & EXPRESSCARD are the technologies the PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card International Association) develops. PCMCIA was founded in 1989. DV was only launched in 1996? So exactly *WHAT* are you trying to say?

Also, the P2 card is based on the CARDBUS format, not the OLD ASS 16-bit Type I PC cards from the early 90's!! This technology is not going anywhere soon. Buy yourself a clue next time before you start spouting BS!!

WARDO, quit embarrassing yourself!!
Click to expand...


P2 SPECS:
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/spec_card.html

P2 GENERAL INFO:
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/index.html#

PCMCIA Organization
http://www.pcmcia.org/ - Go do a little research next time before making a spectacle of yourself!! :)

~reservoir~
 
reservoir said:
Yet another asinine statement. Why would you contradict yourself in your own post? If you've had you XL1 since 97 and still use DV, then why do you assume PCMCIA won't be around much longer? In that case you are saying EXPRESSCARDS won't be around much longer either. Why? Because PCMCIA is an *organization* that develops the standards. It is not a Standard itself!! PC CARD, CARDBUS, & EXPRESSCARD are the technologies the PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card International Association) develops. PCMCIA was founded in 1989. DV was only launched in 1996? So exactly *WHAT* are you trying to say?

Also, the P2 card is based on the CARDBUS format, not the OLD ASS 16-bit Type I PC cards from the early 90's!! This technology is not going anywhere soon. Buy yourself a clue next time before you start spouting BS!!




P2 SPECS:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/spec_card.html

P2 GENERAL INFO:
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/index.html#

PCMCIA Organization
http://www.pcmcia.org/ - Go do a little research next time before making a spectacle of yourself!! :)

~reservoir~
Click to expand...

Not a contradiction; they are two different capture formats. I know they are not doing away with the organization, just phasing out the current cardbus format.

The following is from the Dell website:

"ExpressCard is a small, modular add-in card designed to REPLACE the PC Card over the next few years. The ExpressCard specification was developed by the Personal Computer Memory Card International Association (PCMCIA). The ExpressCard form factors shown in Figure 10 are designed to provide a small, LESS-EXPENSIVE, and higher-bandwidth replacement for the PC Card. Like the PCI Express Mini Card, an ExpressCard module can support a x1 PCI Express and a USB 2.0 link. Its low cost also makes it feasible for small form-factor desktop systems. The ExpressCard module also has low power requirements and is hot pluggable. It is likely to be used for communications, hard-disk storage, and emerging I/O technologies. ExpressCard modules are expected in the second half of 2004."


I know mini DV is still around. It's tape, like 1/2" 3/4" and Beta II. No matter how old it is it still transfers at real time. Thats why I mentioned Mini DV being the newest widely used tape. P2, on the other hand, is different. It is a computer component. Technology is increasing more rapidly now than ever before. With the P2 card getting bigger & bigger over the next couple of years, transfer speed will be a big factor. I think someone said the 4 Gig P2 currently transfers in 4 minutes(?) How long will it take to transfer the 128 GB P2 card?? If it's that slow where is the huge advantage over Tape? I know...wait till NAB.

(Cardbus) P2 Transfer rates below: BASED ON THE CURRENT PCI BUS (which will be replaced soon by PCI Express..... remember ISA.)

Theoretical maximums are as follows:
CardBus (32 bit burst mode)
* Byte mode: 33 Mbytes/sec
* Word mode: 66 Mbytes/sec
* DWord mode: 132 Mbytes/sec
16-bit Memory Transfers (100 ns Minimum cycle)
* Byte mode: 10 Mbytes/sec
* Word mode: 20 Mbytes/sec
16-bit I/O Transfers (255 ns Minimum cycle)
* Byte mode: 3.92 Mbytes/sec
* Word mode: 7.84 Mbytes/sec
Please note that actual throughput may be substantially less than the theoretical maximums of the interface. (From the PCMCIA.org website)

EXPRESSCARD transfer rates: Using existing USB2 technology for older to current computers=240 megabits per second.
Expresscards using PCI Express (PCI's Replacement)2 gigabits+ per second.

WOW! I know which format I would pick....Please see my thread topic!

If Sony, JVC, or Cannon try to out shine the new HVX200 next year, what format do you think they will pick?

This may not all come to pass right away but it will be a factor--maybe before the new camera hits the shelves or soon after, but especially when SD cards and hard drives get much faster. The mini SD is out now!They are getting smaller, faster, cheaper. and will eventually hit a bottleneck in the Cardbus.

If you think it's asinine, thats O.K. with me. Um....I'll bet you still use the Maciva with a floppy disk? Yes, it's still around, but imagine the transfer time if it contained 1 GB of data. And maybe you still transfer the data through a serial cable(?) It's still around too. How long would it take to transfer a 1 gig SD card through it??
This whole argument is moot because Panasonic is going to use the cardbus. And I will happily live with their choice and buy the camera anyway.
 
Still don't see your point. How long does it take to transfer a 63min tape? uh well 63min. So for 11 Gigs of footage it takes 63 min. IT will only take 5 minutes to transfer the same. Still way better than real time.
So if you want to stick with your XL1, DV tape and real time transfer, feel free.
 
Exactly scharky, It's all about convenience (and no moving parts). I HATE the capture process and would much rather transfer the file than 'capture' it. Wouldn't you?
 
scharky said:
Still don't see your point. How long does it take to transfer a 63min tape? uh well 63min. So for 11 Gigs of footage it takes 63 min. IT will only take 5 minutes to transfer the same. Still way better than real time.
So if you want to stick with your XL1, DV tape and real time transfer, feel free.
Click to expand...

stephenlnoe said:
Exactly scharky, It's all about convenience (and no moving parts). I HATE the capture process and would much rather transfer the file than 'capture' it. Wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

I'm over realtime tape capture too. But with the new P2 system shooting 1080 DVCPR HD, Guess what you get? Realtime file transfer..Do you get it now?
 
Wardo is just trying to save face!! Please quit embarrasing yourself and stop while you still have some dignity left!! I'm with Scharky!! WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

It's obvious you think *ExpressCard* is the "End-All-Be-All" of the formats developed by the PCMCIA group. And? Your point is? You said something like....

Wardo said:
Blah, Blah, ExpressCard REPLACING PC CARD over the next few years, blah, blah, blah, technical specs, more blah, blah, the end
Click to expand...

I know you went out and bought yourself a nice new laptop and you are probably convinced that just because it came with ExpressCard, it must be the *NEXT GREAT FORMAT* and anything we say otherwise is moot!!

I guess it can be sumed up like this: When a company or organization says *X* format is going to replace *Y* format in *XX* amount of years, they are usually way off. I mean, take a look around. DVD is STILL in the process of replacing people's VHS recorders and they have been around since like 95'. Or here's another great example for you. CD-ROM was supposed to be the faster and larger storage medium to replace the floppy disk, but it has only been in the last few years that PC manufactures have quit installing them. You can still get them BTO (Built to Order) of course (20 dollars extra!!). But nevertheless, 20 years later and the floppy has been *officially* REPLACED!! Wow, that was a fast turn around huh? So if you think PC Cards are going away in the next 3 years you need to check your head. Or maybe use GOOGLE to research how many people / companies are still actively using PC Cards. They are going nowhere soon. Have fun thinking of a great rebuttal. We will all be waiting with baited breath for a coherent and logical response!! Or better yet...here's an idea....when you respond, make sure you actually have a POINT!! It makes it sooo much more enjoyable for the reader / listener!! Bye now!! ~reservoir~
 
reservoir said:
When a company or organization says *X* format is going to replace *Y* format in *XX* amount of years, they are usually way off.
Click to expand...


While I don't agree with Wardo, I have to say that this case is a little different and not as simple as you seem to paint it. In this case the organization that is saying *X* will replace *Y* is the same organization that created *X* and *Y*

It's not the same as saying DVDs will replace VHS.

It's more like Sony saying DigiBeta will replace BetaSP
(of course, that didn't really happen.... hence why I don't agree with him).

But, I'm pretty sure that's what his point was.
 
That's fair I guess. But arguing with Wardo is futile. I'd have better luck holding a conversation with my pet paint chips. The leaded kind of course.

I was sort of swinging both ways on that comment anyway. The *X* will replace *Y* thing could be anything I guess. I should have been more specific.

PCMCIA group saying that ExpressCard is going to replace PC Card and CardBus are *PROBABLY* correct. But we are talking 5 years or longer, not 2-3 years. That's absurd. I guess that's what I meant!! When you have installed user bases that are in the MULTI-MILLIONS of users, you can't expect them to merge / convert their technologies overnight. I was in the IT biz for too long to let some fresh outta college *yuppie* preach about how every new format and gadget that comes out is *TAKING OVER*!! "Out with the old, and in with the new." <---That's what their taught, so that's what they think. It does hold true, but they forget the factor of *TIME* that is required for that equation to balance itself!!

But the same goes for the other analogies as well. Any format, no matter who designed it, is usually biased towards their own opinion and not the reality of *WILL THE CUSTOMERS ACTUALLY BUY IT*!! Their numbers are always skewed based on what they THINK will happen and not what most likely WILL happen!! When you are designing new products you have to be optimistic I guess. Companies like Panasonic always tend to be *The Glass is Half Full* types, which I think is a good way of looking at things. Even if P2 flops, they tried hard and actually listened to what *WE* wanted, unlike some *OTHER* Playstation-making companies we know!!

~reservoir~
 
Wadro said:
I'm over realtime tape capture too. But with the new P2 system shooting 1080 DVCPR HD, Guess what you get? Realtime file transfer..Do you get it now?
Click to expand...

I've written this before in this thread, but this statement is misleading at best. The P2 cards are rated right now at 320Mbps and 640Mbps, which means that they should be able to transfer 1080 DVCPROHD data at about 3.2x or 6.4x realtime.

The portable hard drive downloader that Panasonic is releasing, on the other hand, transfers data at about 100Mbps, which means that it will work at about realtime for 1080 DVCPROHD. Faster systems will be able to take advantage of the full speed of the P2 card.

(And, to make my main point a third time, note that none of this data transfer is limited by the data rate of Cardbus, so all of this talk about Express Cards doesn't make sense.)
 
reservoir said:
When you have installed user bases that are in the MULTI-MILLIONS of users, you can't expect them to merge / convert their technologies overnight.
Click to expand...
Which is why when people say that HD-DVD or blu-ray will make DVD obsolete in a couple of years, I just have to gape at them in amazement...
 
xander76 said:
(And, to make my main point a third time, note that none of this data transfer is limited by the data rate of Cardbus, so all of this talk about Express Cards doesn't make sense.)
Click to expand...

I have heard your point all 3 times you have brought attention to the fact that the slow speed of the SD card is where the bottleneck occurs. Not the Cardbus. I guess I'm overly optimistic about the SD cards or other things inside the Cardbus getting much faster in the near future. Which may or may not be the case. So I guess this means it will be years before we have to worry about maxing out the cardbus format? ----If it is still around? Sorry, I had to throw that in for reservoir.

xander76 said:
The portable hard drive downloader that Panasonic is releasing, on the other hand, transfers data at about 100Mbps, which means that it will work at about realtime for 1080 DVCPROHD. Faster systems will be able to take advantage of the full speed of the P2 card.
Click to expand...

Any Idea why the portable hard drive downloader is slower?
 
Keeping in context of this thread, "P2 Leaves Door Wide Open For Others"

The Memory Stick PRO format was designed to realize continuous real-time recording of high capacity high-resolution moving images, with recording capacities specified up to 32GB. In addition to its theoretical maximum transfer speed of 160Mbps, a main advantage of the Memory Stick PRO format is its minimum write speed* of 15Mbps as a format standard, which will enable continuous real-time recording of high-resolution moving images.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4837
 
Wardo said:
So I guess this means it will be years before we have to worry about maxing out the cardbus format? ----If it is still around? Sorry, I had to throw that in for reservoir.
Click to expand...

Fine by me. At least you are acknowledging that there is not going to be some *HOSTILE* takeover, and that Card bus will be around for awhile. :)

~reservoir~
 
The thing that is so deceptive about everything Black Magic does is:

1) Final Cut Pro 4 HD doesn't support 4:4:4 anything
2) There are currently only two monitors that natively display 4:4:4, they are both over 40K
3) They don't mention either of the above
4) BlackMagic banner says, "we make everything uncompressed 10Bit 4:4:4 and you can too"
5) That cannot be true unless you have software that handles 4:4:4 and monitor that displays it
 
Well personally.....we are all getting screwed either way!! 4:4:4 is panzy talk. I want the camera to have uncompressed 6:6:6 output to my Emc2 SAN. If Panny can't do this, we'll then *F* 'em!! :evil:

Did anyone catch the heavy use of sarcasm? Why is it that only a year ago 4:2:2 was *what we wanted*. Now we got it. But now we want *4:4:4*. Jesus Lord and God Almighty help us all. Why don't we just ask Panny to throw in a RAID system too and still make it under 10k?

Heaven Help!!

~reservoir~
 
1:Final Cut Pro will support 4:4:4 if you buy the Blackmagic card, because it comes with the Blackmagic 4:4:4 codec, which is recognized by FCP.

2:To monitor in 4:4:4 you also need the HDlink, which is $700. It connects to the SDI outputs of the card (the $2000 Decklink HD Pro gives you Dual Link 4:4:4 ) which then connects to a LCD display with DVI connections, which will then let the LCD display in 10 bit 4:4:4 as long as the monitor is 1920x1080 pixels.

But for DVCPRO HD, you dont need this card, unless you must preview your footage for accurate color correction on a CRT or LCD, HD monitor. And even than you dont need 4:4:4 because your footage from the HVX200 was never
4:4:4, 10 bit to begin with, it was 4:2:2, 8 bit.
 
Fiercecurry,

I will take your word for it. Gary Adcock shared the previous criticisms with me on BlackMagic.
Of course, he's sponsored by AJA Video and the Kona2 card. So, whatevers clever.
 
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