P2 Leaves Door Wide Open For Others.

W

Wadro

Well-known member
I just bought a new laptop and noticed it came with an EXPRESSCARD slot.....I asked, "What the heck is that?" The sales rep. didn't know so I did an Internet search and found the following:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1472734,00.asp Or read below:

"The standard PC Card slot that has been found on the sides of notebooks since 1991 is wearing out its welcome.

Enter ExpressCard, a smaller, FASTER, CHEAPER solution. ExpressCard will have the theoretical maximum throughput to transfer data at a whopping 250 MBps (actually, 500 MBps total; 250 MBps to the computer in one direction and 250 MBps to the card in the other). This is in comparison to the now seemingly sluggish 132-MBps PC Card standard.

ExpressCard's throughput is ideal for video transfers and uncompressed files. To compare it with throughputs you're familiar with: Gigabit Ethernet has a throughput of 125 MBps, FireWire 800 (seen only in new Apple notebooks so far) runs at 100 MBps, and USB 2.0 can reach 60 MBps"


I just pray that the new HVX200 has put one of these on the camera because it looks like the way of the future. If is doesen then the door would be wide open for Sony or JVC to come out with a new or revision of their Cameras and include this to be a better alternative than the P2.....

Hello Panasonic......
JAN...Is it too late to add this slot? (Or make an adapter) Or an NAB surprise!!

Sorry for the long post but it was time for some new action. Also I would like to be able to edit on my new laptop. Also if this has been discussed or won't work.......Nevermind!

More info: http://www.expresscard.org/web/site/qa.jsp
 
Expresscard

Expresscard

The only thing bad about the Express card is it's size is smaller, not larger than P2 card.
That would make it potentially have smaller capacity, which P2 is only at 4 gig now.
Panasonic has a few options:

1. They can keep what they got, which really is not a bad thing because HD video only needs 100 MBps transfer in it's current state. P2 cards can transfer up to 132MBps. They only do it one way at a time for video, so there is a somewhat safe margin there. Due to the newer card small form factor, it will always have lower capacity than P2's larger size.

Later generations of Panasonic video will likely be reduced to a 50MB codec, at which time, Panasonic will likely have the low end cameras hold on to P2 at 50MB codec, and higher end cameras convert to a P2a, or P2 squared, P2express, form factor implimenting the same sized card, but with a "express" interface to allow the higher bandwidth, while maintaining it's proprietary format, and retaining the 100MB codec in it's high end cameras. They could easily do this in a 2 year period, by then, there will be enough P2 cards out there to have a good supply. If they switched to the P2express interface after 2 years for it's high end line, us current standard P2 users would be happy to see the demand drop, thus lowering our P2 costs. As long as they kept P2 in the 2007 low end cameras, it doesn't have to be obsolete. They can just impliment the "express" interface in it's high end. Everybody win (everybody is Panasonic customers, Nobody is everyone else).

I am sure Sony will be hating P2 after NAB, and embrace expresscard.
Expect to see Sony with a card type camcorder next year.
They will most likely make their own proprietary interface as Sony often does.
Sony...it will be too late by then.

2. They can impliment the new standard into the P2 card, and render current P2 interfaces useless. Panasonic don't do this...you got too much invested monetarily and customer / market wise.

3. Do nothing about the potential threat of express card.
 
There are a lot of reasons why Panasonic won't and shouldn't make P2 cards Express Cards:

1. It's a new technology, while PCMCIA is widely implemented. New technologies are often buggier and more expensive to manufacture.

2. The data rates that Express Card has are not needed. PCMCIA cards have a throughput of 132MBps, which is over 10 times as fast as the DVCPROHD data rate of 100Mbps (notice the difference between MBps and Mbps). PCMCIA cards could even theoretically handle 1920x1080 4:1:1 60i *uncompressed*. Granted, having an Express Card architecture could speed up transfers of footage to your hard drive, but this assumes that you have a computer and hard drive set up that can deal with data rates greater than 132MBps.

3. The SD memory inside the P2 card can't transfer information fast enough to make the Express Card's data rate worthwhile. The fastest SD card around has a tranfer rate of 20MBps, and four of them RAIDed together then has a theoretical transfer rate of at most 80MBps. This will change over time, but it will be several years before it is an issue.

4. If Panasonic used an Express Card, there would be less room for flash memory inside the cards, and the recording times would suffer.
 
Don't mean to be picky, but just to clarify 4:4:4 is uncompressed. 4:1:1 is DV Compression
4:2:2 is DVCPro 50/HD, Betacam, Digibeta, HD Cam. HD Cam SR is capable of 4:4:4 with compression as well as 3:1:1 which I really don't get yet. Just thought that might help.
 
evinsky said:
Don't mean to be picky, but just to clarify 4:4:4 is uncompressed. 4:1:1 is DV Compression
4:2:2 is DVCPro 50/HD, Betacam, Digibeta, HD Cam. HD Cam SR is capable of 4:4:4 with compression as well as 3:1:1 which I really don't get yet. Just thought that might help.
Click to expand...


Color sampling and compression are really two seperate issues.

4:1:1 is DV's color sampling ratio.
DV compression is 5:1

For example, there is no 4:4:4 uncompressed SD format that I know of.
Generally when people talk about uncompressed SD, they mean 4:2:2 uncompressed.

While I'm not familiar with anything that is 4:1:1 uncompressed,
I suppose it's possible (though it would probably be a bad idea).


My point is, 4:4:4 does not necessarily mean something is 'uncompressed.'
And likewise, 'uncompressed' does not mean something is 4:4:4.

They are two seperate things.
 
Hmnnnn..... Let's see. USB1 and USB2 use the same slot and yet the datarate is completely different. PCMCIA? take a look at PCMCIA.org. There might be some new info. Anyway, Panasonic is a behemoth of a company with a equally giant R&D department. Give them some credit (and buy some of their stock).

PS Luis is correct. Color sampling is not data compression, it is merely how often the colors are sampled. Datarate, on the other hand, is about how much throughput, and still more compression is how much the information is compressed for storage. I understand what you meant though.....
 
Remember the Sony Maciva? It used floppy disks. I bet the people that still use them would find it hard to use on the computers that don't have them, and also laptops. The new expresscard is the replacement for the PCMCIA card. My new laptop has both, and in a few years they will do away with the PCMCIA slots and it might be a problem. The expresscard was developed about 3 years ago and is now a reality. It can hold the 1.8" hard drives and they are up to 40 megs already. They can also be used as a video card and blow away current AGP specs....I wondered why Panasonic is using SD card instead of XD cards(much smaller) and found out Panasonic helped develop SD cards.
 
I'm pretty sure most of us mean 4:4:4 by "uncompressed"

I'm pretty sure most of us mean 4:4:4 by "uncompressed"

Luis Caffesse said:
Color sampling and compression are really two seperate issues.

For example, there is no 4:4:4 uncompressed SD format that I know of.
Generally when people talk about uncompressed SD, they mean 4:2:2 uncompressed.
...

My point is, 4:4:4 does not necessarily mean something is 'uncompressed.'
And likewise, 'uncompressed' does not mean something is 4:4:4.

They are two seperate things.
Click to expand...

D1 and D5 are examples of uncompressed SD 4:4:4 tape formats. And if a NLE is to advertise itself as offering "Uncompressed SD" then it better be 4:4:4 or I want my money back; luckily they do (Avid Symphony etc)

cheers

-Chimpan-A
 
D1 and D5 are examples of uncompressed SD 4:4:4 tape formats. And if a NLE is to advertise itself as offering "Uncompressed SD" then it better be 4:4:4 or I want my money back; luckily they do (Avid Symphony etc)


Actually, D1 and D5 are both 4:2:2 formats, and they are both uncompressed.

"D1 stored uncompressed digitized component video, encoded at YUV 4:2:2 using the CCIR 601 raster format, along with PCM audio tracks as well as timecode on a 19mm (3/4") cassette tape"
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D1_(Sony)

"D5, a SMPTE format, is uncompressed, what we call CCIR601. It is an integral serial digital component 4:2:2"
Source: http://www.postproductionhelper.com/pages/hdinfo/hdformats.htm


There is also a graph comparing the specs on many different formats here:
http://www.kensystem.com/kensys/vtr.htm


(As a side note, what used to be called CCIR601 is now ITU-R601)


As far as NLE's go, that's a whole other discussion.
You can get uncompressed SD 4:4:4 in your NLE, which is great to work in.
But when it comes to mastering onto some existing SD tape format, as far as I know 4:2:2 is as high as you're going to get.

Suffice to say that color sampling and compression are two different things.


(sorry, I didn't mean to take this off topic)
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Actually, D1 and D5 are both 4:2:2 formats, and they are both uncompressed.
Click to expand...

Oppps, my apologies. And all this time I thought D1 was 4:4:4...

so does this mean there is no SD format that will survive limitless generations? I guess in theory it does,

cheers

-Chimpan-A
 
Chimpan-A said:
Oppps, my apologies. And all this time I thought D1 was 4:4:4...
Click to expand...


No apologies necessary, I thought the same thing for a long time.
Doesn't seem to make any sense does it?
I mean, if we have 4:1:1 formats, and 4:2:2, it's only natural to assume that the highest end SD formats would be 4:4:4.

As far as I know the only 4:4:4 tape format available is Sony's HD-SR (which can be either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2). But nothing in the SD realm is 4:4:4.



In theory any digital format can survive limitless generations, when dubbed through firewire or SDI without any recompression (basically just doing straight dubs without any changes to the data).
 
Just a thought , what does the 4 2 4 1 44445678 etc. have to do with p2 and the expresscard. LOL
 
Ok, back on topic then....

Even though we dont need the extra transfer speed of Expresscards in the camera, they would be a big advantage when it came to downloading footage onto a harddrive. We could free cards up much quicker. I assume with current p2 cards, downloading the contents onto, say, a laptop would occur in just under realtime; since their transfer speed is not much over the 100MBs of the DVC PRO HD stream.

With expresscards we might get away with owning less of them.

I'm sort of thinking I'd want 3 P2 cards to be feel safe, but I would proabably only want 2 ExpressP2 cards...

Its all just guesses and conjecture of course.... :)
 
Chimpan-A said:
I assume with current p2 cards, downloading the contents onto, say, a laptop would occur in just under realtime; since their transfer speed is not much over the 100MBs of the DVC PRO HD stream.
Click to expand...

I suppose that all depends what format and framerate you're shooting.
The number I've heard batted around is roughly 1 minute per GB.
So a 4GB card will take 4 minutes to transfer.

Of course, if you're shooting DVCPro, DVCPro50, or even 720P24 DVCProHD, then you would have more than 4 minutes per card.

So, in certain scenarios the transfer would be much faster than realtime.

While it would be great to have faster transfer speeds, I think I prefer going with PCMCIA instead of Express cards simply because they are better established. They've been around longer and they will get cheaper faster.


(again, sorry about pulling the thread off topic, I just didn't want anyone to read wrong information and take it as fact)
 
xander76 said:
There are a lot of reasons why Panasonic won't and shouldn't make P2 cards Express Cards:

1. It's a new technology, while PCMCIA is widely implemented. New technologies are often buggier and more expensive to manufacture.

2. The data rates that Express Card has are not needed. PCMCIA cards have a throughput of 132MBps, which is over 10 times as fast as the DVCPROHD data rate of 100Mbps (notice the difference between MBps and Mbps). PCMCIA cards could even theoretically handle 1920x1080 4:1:1 60i *uncompressed*. Granted, having an Express Card architecture could speed up transfers of footage to your hard drive, but this assumes that you have a computer and hard drive set up that can deal with data rates greater than 132MBps.

3. The SD memory inside the P2 card can't transfer information fast enough to make the Express Card's data rate worthwhile. The fastest SD card around has a tranfer rate of 20MBps, and four of them RAIDed together then has a theoretical transfer rate of at most 80MBps. This will change over time, but it will be several years before it is an issue.

4. If Panasonic used an Express Card, there would be less room for flash memory inside the cards, and the recording times would suffer.
Click to expand...

I still use my XL1 which I got in 1997. That is 8 years ago. We still have DV tape. Do you think PCMCIA card or slots will be around 8 years from now? I hardly think so. Once the camera is out were stuck. Just hoping Panasonic will add at least one expresscard slot before they mass produce it, By then the one P2 Expresscard will be plenty big and we don't have to buy the HVX200a which has the new Expresscard upgrade.
 
Wadro said:
I still use my XL1 which I got in 1997. That is 8 years ago. We still have DV tape. Do you think PCMCIA card or slots will be around 8 years from now? I hardly think so.
Click to expand...


Why not?
You said so yourself....you got your XL1 in 1997 and we still have DV tape.
I'll bet in 8 years you can still get DV tape.

And, I guarantee you that if Panasonic is coming out with a full line of P2 cameras (and a P2 Varicam can't be that far away) then PCMCIA cards aren't going anywhere.

As long as they make the cameras, they will make P2 cards.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Why not?
You said so yourself....you got your XL1 in 1997 and we still have DV tape.
I'll bet in 8 years you can still get DV tape.

And, I guarantee you that if Panasonic is coming out with a full line of P2 cameras (and a P2 Varicam can't be that far away) then PCMCIA cards aren't going anywhere.

As long as they make the cameras, they will make P2 cards.
Click to expand...

The point is that the new format has hit the shelves and the following is from the PCMCIA site:

ExpressCard was formerly known by its codename: "NEWCARD." Over time ExpressCard technology is expected to replace CardBus as the preferred solution for hot-pluggable internal I/O expansion for desktop and mobile computers.

It was developed in 2003 and is now being implemented. I'm just saying we don't want to get stuck. As others have said P2 is not new technology it just puts 2 old technologies together.
About the DV tape...I can still get 3/4" tape but try to get a 5 1/4" disk drive. Technology is rapidly increasing, we don't want to get passed by. And if Panasonic users are the only ones using the old PCMCIA format, it it may not get as cheap as we might wish. Supply and demand.
 
Chimpan-A said:
I assume with current p2 cards, downloading the contents onto, say, a laptop would occur in just under realtime; since their transfer speed is not much over the 100MBs of the DVC PRO HD stream.
Click to expand...

Once again, the DVCPROHD 1080i60 stream is 100 Mega BITS per second, whereas the PCMCIA interface is 132 Mega BYTES per second. Bytes are eight times bigger than bits, so the PCMCIA interface is about 10 times faster than the DVCPROHD stream.

Also, and more importantly, the PCMCIA interface is not the limiting factor when downloading footage. For now, the limiting factor will be in almost all cases the hard drive you are copying the data to. Even LaCie's 4-drive RAID only claims a transfer rate of 80MBps, which shouldn't be a problem for PCMCIA.

Even if you get an XServe RAID with amazing data rates, though, no SD cards currently made could output the data fast enough to make PCMCIA an issue. The fastest SD card right now outputs at 20MBps, and since a P2 card has 4 of them, the theoretical throughput would be 80MBps at most.

Finally, let's assume that in a few years the data rates for hard drives and SD cards have increased enough to make PCMCIA an issue. And let's further suppose that Panasonic decides to therefore change P2 cards to Express Cards. Then, all Panasonic needs to do is provide a PCMCIA-to-Express Card adapter for the HVX200. We'd be able to use the new P2 Express Cards and download footage more quickly, and the problem would be solved without any need for an Express Card slot on the camera right now.
 
That a P2 Card fits in a PC Card Slot is a bonus. I mean, come on. . .
What does a Sony XDcam disc fit into? My slot loading laptop drive? I don't think so.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
I suppose that all depends what format and framerate you're shooting.
The number I've heard batted around is roughly 1 minute per GB.
So a 4GB card will take 4 minutes to transfer.
Click to expand...

Panasonic has announced a portable hard drive device that you can plug P2 cards in and automatically download footage without a laptop. Jan has said that a 4GB card will take 4 minutes to transfer using this device, which is about realtime for full 100Mbps DVCPROHD.

However, the reason it takes this long has nothing to do with PCMCIA, which has a data rate 10 times faster than full DVCPROHD. I assume that the new device takes one minute per Gigabyte because it is copying to a single laptop hard drive.

On Panasonic's site, the P2 cards are listed as having speeds from 320Mbps to 640Mbps, which would result in transfer times of approximately 3x to 6x realtime for full DVCPROHD. Of course, this would depend on having a hard drive setup that was fast enough to accept the data.
 
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