P2 - How many uses until it would actually seem like a value?

[Jaime Valles]

Hmmm. So probably waiting a bit for longer duration cards will make your camera last EVEN longer given the insert/removal eventual failure figure, given nothing else fails before that. Sounds like they really did their homework on this....

Actually, if you just buy two 8GB cards (say, the $9,999 package) the cards SHOULD last the 100,000 rewrites, because you never have to take the cards out. You can dump the footage directly from the cards in the HVX to an external Hard Disk via Firewire or USB2.

This is what I'm planning to do on my next feature film. Assuming there will be 25 hours of footage, here's my workflow. Fill 'em up, dump to a 250GB HDD (Disk A), keep shooting while somebody makes a backup of the footage to another two 250GB HDDs (Disks B and C). Then at home at the end of the shoot, put the footage from Disk A into the two big 1TB Hard Disks for editing. Leave Disks B and C as archival in two separate physical locations with ideal storage conditions. For 25 hours of footage, I think I'll need 12 250GB HDDs.

Cost:
HVX & two 8GB cards = $10,000
250GB HDD ($200 each x 12) = $2400
1TB HDD ($900 each x 2) = $1800
TOTAL = $14,200
Total for media (not P2 cards because they're "part of the camera") = $4200

I already have a PowerMac with FCP, so I wouldn't need any additional hardware for editing. So, after getting the HVX package with two 8GB cards, I'm spending $4200 on all the storage space I need for editing AND for archiving 2 separate copies of all the footage directly on ready-to-edit Hard Disks.

By comparison, you'd need 47 DVCProHD tapes to make 1 archive of all 25 hours of footage, which rings up $3290. So 94 tapes for 2 archives, at $70 each = $6580

PLUS, you still need to get enought Hard Disk space to digitize the footage and edit.

I think I'm saving money right off the bat. I'm not waiting for the "media" to pay for itself... It already did. Not to mention that for the next time, I already HAVE all the hard disks, ready to go. With thape, I'd have to buy them all over again for the next project.

I think P2 is going to save uas a LOT of $$$ by comparison to DVCProHD tape.

 

[Duct Tape Films]

Lack of concern for money? Independently Wealthy? Ya, No talent just eat sh*t and sleep. I was talking about your posts and the posts of others. Keep it about that and don't try make this about me.

Here, I'll give you this one for free. Buy two 8 gig P2 cards and never take them out of the camera. Now the camera costs 10k. If you're client wants 4:2:2 HD and won't pay for a varicam rental you think they are really gonna laugh at you for not charging for tape stock?

The more time you spend on actually thinking about a workflow instead of the symantics of tape stock, the brighter you're future will be. Maybe one day you'll be as rich as me.

jesse

So you're content shortchanging your ACTUAL expenses, eating them yourself, rather than passing them along to the client? Bully to you.

As for workflow, I have thought about it extensively, but that is putting the cart well before the horse, no? The FIRST thing I'm going to have to do is sell the idea of shooting on this camera to someone who may not understand or even care about the benefits of workflow, let alone BELIEVE that this camera can in anyway compare to a Varicam - something that will, for early adopters, be kind of an uphill battle - although the results I'm sure will more than impress and win converts of the skeptics.

No, the single biggest reason there WILL be subscribers will be first and foremost, cost savings, & cost savings alone, oh, and did I mention, cost savings. That's the reason people will want to use this camera - a value/results ratio that is as yet unheard of. We, the actual users, may get all excited about workflow, but you know as well as I do that that is NOT the reason someone who is writing checks will give the go ahead. Bottom line....

So how do you sell using this camera to someone who doesn't care about workflow? You compare it to using other models, showing a cost/benefit comparison versus another camera of somewhat the same capablities. Telling a potential producer that his savings in media will be 50% compared to a Varicam on the first picture, and then nearly 100% on any subsequent ones, is the kind of thing THEY LOVE HEARING, and in turn sells them on investing in this technology.

As for just buying the two cards, right now that's an almost unworkable solution. Any savings you've had in media costs have just been eaten up by your talent and crew just standing around waiting for the transfer to your short term storage device. Methinks it perhaps may be you that may want to think about workflow issues....

 

[jmfox]

you never have to take the cards out. You can dump the footage directly from the cards in the HVX to an external Hard Disk via Firewire or USB2.

Are you sure about that? There no doubt is firewire but I think it must be captured and processed before it can be saved to a hard disk. If the firewire is on the output side of the P2 then it can be saved to a hard disk but something (like a computer) needs to direct traffic.

jmf

 

[Duct Tape Films]

Are you sure about that? There no doubt is firewire but I think it must be captured and processed before it can be saved to a hard disk. If the firewire is on the output side of the P2 then it can be saved to a hard disk but something (like a computer) needs to direct traffic.

jmf

Almost sure I read a post from Jan saying that yes, you will need a computer to direct traffic using this method. Also, what are you going to do about this transfer downtime for cast & crew, not to mention limited location time? If you're paying these people, it would certainly cost less just to buy another couple cards and keep moving along....

 

[Rosestar]

As for just buying the two cards, right now that's an almost unworkable solution. Any savings you've had in media costs have just been eaten up by your talent and crew just standing around waiting for the transfer to your short term storage device. Methinks it perhaps may be you that may want to think about workflow issues....

Your talent and crew should be rehersing, blocking, lighting and setting up for the next shoot. If you have your talent and crew watching the camera department change mags (or tapes) or batteries or lenses or what ever, then you have work flow problems now.

 

[jessecoane]

Dude, how am I eating the expense myself if it's a business expense. You don't charge for the use of your camera on shoot? Just media? If i have a 10k camera I bring with me to set then I'm gonna be compensated for the use of that camera.

Talent and crew just standing around while I change film mags or make-up etc. Unheard of!!!

Again you are making this argument about me, and I have nothing to do with it.

Its a contest, piss away!!!

jesse

 

[Duct Tape Films]

Your talent and crew should be rehersing, blocking, lighting and setting up for the next shoot. If you have your talent and crew watching the camera department change mags (or tapes) or batteries or lenses or what ever, then you have work flow problems now.

I guess I'm just spoiled to the fact that I've been on some really efficient sets, whereby most of the next shots are lit/dressed pretty close to ready for prime time by the time I'm done with the last shot. It's also my understanding that transfering the cards to a backup media, via the firewire out, right now takes as many minutes as what you have stored, as in real time, as in 16 GB = 16 minutes. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's the case, then that takes considerably longer than changing batteries or even mags, and I can't really see tying up the camera for that amount of time when I should be setting up the shot, thus the real need for four cards. I do hope I'm mistaken....

 

[Jaime Valles]

Almost sure I read a post from Jan saying that yes, you will need a computer to direct traffic using this method. Also, what are you going to do about this transfer downtime for cast & crew, not to mention limited location time? If you're paying these people, it would certainly cost less just to buy another couple cards and keep moving along....

I'm almost 100% sure you can dump directly from P2 to an external Firewire or USB hard disk. What you can't do is record directly to a hard disk WITHOUT recording to P2 first. But you can fill up the two 8GB cards, then plug in the HDD to the firewire port and tell the HVX to transfer the contents to the HDD. Maybe Barry or Noah will chime in and clarify.

As for the "cast & crew standing around waiting to offload the footage," I certainly needed time between setups to arrange lights, do blocking with actors, rehearse lines, etc. I don't think taking a few minutes after recording a scene will disrupt the process too much. Especially when you take into account the time saved over having to digitize the footage, not to mention having to rent a DVCProHD deck.

 

[Duct Tape Films]

I'm almost 100% sure you can dump directly from P2 to an external Firewire or USB hard disk. What you can't do is record directly to a hard disk WITHOUT recording to P2 first. But you can fill up the two 8GB cards, then plug in the HDD to the firewire port and tell the HVX to transfer the contents to the HDD. Maybe Barry or Noah will chime in and clarify.

As for the "cast & crew standing around waiting to offload the footage," I certainly needed time between setups to arrange lights, do blocking with actors, rehearse lines, etc. I don't think taking a few minutes after recording a scene will disrupt the process too much. Especially when you take into account the time saved over having to digitize the footage, not to mention having to rent a DVCProHD deck.

That's my question though, how ARE you going to set up your shot when your camera's tied up transfering, for what I undertstand is the same duration of time that you've shot? Example, you shoot 16 minutes, you transfer via firewire from the camera 16 minutes, and THEN you set up your shot - or worse yet, waiting for the real time transfer in the middle of a shot?

I hope that I am grossly misinformed on this, but this is EXACTLY the reason why I've come to the conclusion that at the very least three, and preferably four, cards would be the only way to not have a unmanagable stoppage in work flow, simply for the fact that you wouldn't have to tie up the camera at all. This is less like changing batteries, and more like waiting for them to charge in reference to previous analogies that have been made....can anyone clear up whether the firewire out transfer actually takes that long, as in real time?

 

[jmfox]

Yes, you need to know what the box will do. If it is smart enough to dump to an external hard drive, maybe it can do it real time.

jmf

 

[Neil Rowe]

in reply to duct tape films.. i m not sure you can do file transfer over the 1394 port.. but as far as usb2.0. ..something id like to direct your attention to concerning transfer times is that the maximum data rate you can record at is 100 mbps. while the maximum datat rate of the P2 card is over 600 mpbs.. and usb2.0 is over 400 mbps. . so no.. it wouldnt take the same amount of time to dump as it does to record.. its been gone over many times before. but pana knows that people will expect faster than realtime data transfer. obviosly otherwise it would take the same amount of time to capture via tape.. right? so theorheticvally you could run data transfer at the maximum data throughput of the parts involved in the system you are dumping to. which is probably limited by the max speed of usb2.0.

it has been stated that the camera will need an intelligent device on the 1394 port to capture direct to disk. and apparently the file transfer to disk over the USB2.0 port has to be done when the camera is not recording.

as far as setting up shots during this time.. we dont know ehether or not you can still see your framing and all to set up a shot as the camera is transferring the files yet.

 

[Jaime Valles]

...the maximum datat rate of the P2 card is over 600 mpbs.. and usb2.0 is over 400 mbps. . so no.. it wouldnt take the same amount of time to dump as it does to record...

Exactly. Transfer rates should be faster than realtime. If not, I agree that having more than 2 cards is the way to go.

...it has been stated that the camera will need an intelligent device on the 1394 port to capture direct to disk. and apparently the file transfer to disk over the USB2.0 port has to be done when the camera is not recording.

Wait... you mean you need a Firestore type device to capture straight to disk if you DON'T use P2 cards, right? Because if you have P2 cards, you can record to them, and them dump to an off-the-shelf USB or Firewire, if I'm not mistaken. You cannot record DIRECTLY to the drive, but you can transfer footage from the P2 to the drive without the use of a laptop.

...as far as setting up shots during this time.. we dont know ehether or not you can still see your framing and all to set up a shot as the camera is transferring the files yet.

I really hope you can look through the viewfinder while dumping the P2 cards to disk. Otherwise it could add a lot more time between setups.

 

[Neil Rowe]

Wait... you mean you need a Firestore type device to capture straight to disk if you DON'T use P2 cards, right? Because if you have P2 cards, you can record to them, and them dump to an off-the-shelf USB or Firewire, if I'm not mistaken. You cannot record DIRECTLY to the drive, but you can transfer footage from the P2 to the drive without the use of a laptop..

..of course - the confusion comes fomr me not cinsidering recording to P2 and then dumping to HDD as DTD recording. granted the P2 drives are still drives so it is direct to drive recording, but its not direct to hard disk.

I really hope you can look through the viewfinder while dumping the P2 cards to disk. Otherwise it could add a lot more time between setups

me too. it would seem silly not to be able to. .. i can understand not being aboe to record.. but not being able to see through the lense would be dumpy.. id still love the cam im sure. but id be dissapointed if it was an oversight that excluded this featrure.