P2 card vs Tape
- Thread starter Kugar13
- Start date
Anyone who claims that tape is better than P2 is out of their mind or is grossly misinformed. It's a much safer media, you will not get dropout on a P2, never have to worry about breaking the tape and best of all, you will never have to sit around waiting for a tape to capture again. The only argument against P2 is that it's much more expensive, which doesn't even make much sense anymore since media prices have fallen substantially within the last year. Consider the fact that you can reuse the same card over and over tape just doesn't make sense anymore which is why none of the new cameras shoot on tape. I shoot on tape and I can't wait to move on to a solid state media camera.
Unless you record onto VHS, tape recordings are digital too.
Yeah, I should have worded that differently. Sorry about that.
Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
You are comparing a screwdriver to a hammer.
P2 has its advantages and tape has its own.
Try to record a reality show with p2 (where you have 2-3 hours of interrupted action) and you will start loving tapes again (as with tape you change your mags only every 45min). Also many networks want the tape as their rough footage so you have to record back to tape with p2.
P2 has its advantages and tape has its own.
Try to record a reality show with p2 (where you have 2-3 hours of interrupted action) and you will start loving tapes again (as with tape you change your mags only every 45min). Also many networks want the tape as their rough footage so you have to record back to tape with p2.
Never have we had such an opportunity to have multiple copies of our raw footage.
I'm shooting car commercials where we send the raw to LA for cutting. I download the footage from P2 to the clients harddrive which he sends off. I download to my drives at home. We now have three "copies"(actually 1 original and two clones) of the camera footage. I don't clear my cards or drives 'til I get the word that the post house has the footage.
Send off a tape that gets lost or damaged in the mail and you are royally screwed.
I'm shooting car commercials where we send the raw to LA for cutting. I download the footage from P2 to the clients harddrive which he sends off. I download to my drives at home. We now have three "copies"(actually 1 original and two clones) of the camera footage. I don't clear my cards or drives 'til I get the word that the post house has the footage.
Send off a tape that gets lost or damaged in the mail and you are royally screwed.
emretufekci
Well-known member
Hi Kugar,
I can just speak from experience for the unending debate of tape cs solid state. I own a production company and have 4 edit bays with separate color and audio stations. We have been tapeless for 3 years and own a line of 2700 and 3700 cameras.
The most common misconception about the process comes from peoples inexperience of not having worked in such an environment. We have a very solid and fluid archiving system that keeps all our content online for many years and also backs them to VXA tapes (including all project files and source content).
I have saved about $1.8 million dollars by going tapeless and thats not even counting man-hours. We have never lost a single frame footage and had any problems. My staff of 8 took sometime to adjust in the beginning but now everybody loves it.
The only challenge we had was using high speed cameras that spit out extreme amounts of data, which we solved by preserving only what we need. I am currently in the process of a $2.2 million dollar overhaul and we are eliminating last of our decks. We will hold onto a few decks just incase we get an odd format or client request.
There are people in my market who still are holding onto tape and it works in our favor as more and more of their clients are moving to us.
PS: The times we actually work with tape are when we shoot using systems like the Panavision Genesis due to the limitation of the SSR systems developed.
I can just speak from experience for the unending debate of tape cs solid state. I own a production company and have 4 edit bays with separate color and audio stations. We have been tapeless for 3 years and own a line of 2700 and 3700 cameras.
The most common misconception about the process comes from peoples inexperience of not having worked in such an environment. We have a very solid and fluid archiving system that keeps all our content online for many years and also backs them to VXA tapes (including all project files and source content).
I have saved about $1.8 million dollars by going tapeless and thats not even counting man-hours. We have never lost a single frame footage and had any problems. My staff of 8 took sometime to adjust in the beginning but now everybody loves it.
The only challenge we had was using high speed cameras that spit out extreme amounts of data, which we solved by preserving only what we need. I am currently in the process of a $2.2 million dollar overhaul and we are eliminating last of our decks. We will hold onto a few decks just incase we get an odd format or client request.
There are people in my market who still are holding onto tape and it works in our favor as more and more of their clients are moving to us.
PS: The times we actually work with tape are when we shoot using systems like the Panavision Genesis due to the limitation of the SSR systems developed.
righteous.
Well-known member
My beef with DV tape is that its a pain in the ass to achieve footage that doesn't look very good. Sure, the DVX puts out amazing footage, but its only amazing for a minDV camera. Compare it to p2 in terms of color space, resolution, and workflow, and miniDV is a POS. Film had an ultra tedious process, but at least you ended up working with amazing footage (assuming you shot it well) that never went obsolete, whereas with miniDV I feel you get neither convenience nor quality. It's just sort of a cheap middle ground.
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Take the cost of a deck that can do the formats that P2 can (not counting AVC-Intra), so a DVCPRO-HD deck; and use that to buy cards.
It's the only fair price comparison.
Suddenly P2 is dirt cheap.
Ok, ok, I know .. what about those just shooting DV with it ... a DV deck is much cheaper.
At current prices, hard drive space (to painlessly archive to from P2) is about 1/4 the cost of MiniDV tape for space - meaning that you can shoot and archive DV material from P2 on to two mirrored backup drives for still half the price of archiving DV.
And that archive is instantly accessible, editable and searchable.
So now that in the long term, costs are significantly cheaper, how about record time?
A MiniDV tape holds just shy of 13GB of DV data .. 1 hour. Then you change tapes.
A 16GB P2 card (the smallest in production) already holds more.
A 64GB P2 card holds about 5 hours of DV. Non-stop. Un-interrupted. And that's per slot in the camera.
And with tools like Pre-record, and clip delete, it's very easy to extend the capacity of your cards in the field on many shoots (Though i recognize that often you don't want to delete anything in field [and with 5 hours on a card, why would you?]).
So you take a HVX200 camera, that can record both. And you do a little math...
In one corner:
2x 64GB cards = $900 each, $1800 total.
+ 128GB of hard drive space. At $100 for a 1TB external drive (internal are cheaper), that's $12.80 for single copy ($26 for redundant backup).
OR:
10 x 1-hour MiniDV tapes = $5each (Note that this price hasn't really changed in the last 10 years, the price of P2 has gone from over $400/GB to $14/GB [-96%!] in 5 years), $50 for 10 hours.
For the first 10 hours, the price is:
P2: $1826
DV: $50
For the next 20 hours:
P2: $26
DV: $50
Half the price, with full redundancy, instant searchable access, no head clogs, no camera & deck repair time & costs. (And don't forget no tape changes every hour!)
Only need 5 hours at a time? Then:
First 5 hours:
P2: $912
DV: $25
2nd 5:
P2: $12
DV: $25
For that initial start-up cost of $900 for P2, you can't find a MiniDV deck for that price!
Ok, so you use a $300 MiniDV camcorder as your offload deck (if you can find one! Notice how all the consumer models are memory card now too!) ... that's $600, not bad. But will that $300 camcorder last the 10,000 hours that a P2 card will?
Ok, ok, so you don't need your gear to last 10,000 hours; and you aren't ever even going to shoot more than about 400 hours (the break-point at which 1x 64GB P2 + redundant HDD archive is cheaper than MiniDV only - about $2000 either way), and you aren't going to be able to pay off your media expenses... Then perhaps P2 isn't for you; you are the perfect candidate for AVCHD based cameras like the '150.
- Mikko
It's the only fair price comparison.
Suddenly P2 is dirt cheap.
Ok, ok, I know .. what about those just shooting DV with it ... a DV deck is much cheaper.
At current prices, hard drive space (to painlessly archive to from P2) is about 1/4 the cost of MiniDV tape for space - meaning that you can shoot and archive DV material from P2 on to two mirrored backup drives for still half the price of archiving DV.
And that archive is instantly accessible, editable and searchable.
So now that in the long term, costs are significantly cheaper, how about record time?
A MiniDV tape holds just shy of 13GB of DV data .. 1 hour. Then you change tapes.
A 16GB P2 card (the smallest in production) already holds more.
A 64GB P2 card holds about 5 hours of DV. Non-stop. Un-interrupted. And that's per slot in the camera.
And with tools like Pre-record, and clip delete, it's very easy to extend the capacity of your cards in the field on many shoots (Though i recognize that often you don't want to delete anything in field [and with 5 hours on a card, why would you?]).
So you take a HVX200 camera, that can record both. And you do a little math...
In one corner:
2x 64GB cards = $900 each, $1800 total.
+ 128GB of hard drive space. At $100 for a 1TB external drive (internal are cheaper), that's $12.80 for single copy ($26 for redundant backup).
OR:
10 x 1-hour MiniDV tapes = $5each (Note that this price hasn't really changed in the last 10 years, the price of P2 has gone from over $400/GB to $14/GB [-96%!] in 5 years), $50 for 10 hours.
For the first 10 hours, the price is:
P2: $1826
DV: $50
For the next 20 hours:
P2: $26
DV: $50
Half the price, with full redundancy, instant searchable access, no head clogs, no camera & deck repair time & costs. (And don't forget no tape changes every hour!)
Only need 5 hours at a time? Then:
First 5 hours:
P2: $912
DV: $25
2nd 5:
P2: $12
DV: $25
For that initial start-up cost of $900 for P2, you can't find a MiniDV deck for that price!
Ok, so you use a $300 MiniDV camcorder as your offload deck (if you can find one! Notice how all the consumer models are memory card now too!) ... that's $600, not bad. But will that $300 camcorder last the 10,000 hours that a P2 card will?
Ok, ok, so you don't need your gear to last 10,000 hours; and you aren't ever even going to shoot more than about 400 hours (the break-point at which 1x 64GB P2 + redundant HDD archive is cheaper than MiniDV only - about $2000 either way), and you aren't going to be able to pay off your media expenses... Then perhaps P2 isn't for you; you are the perfect candidate for AVCHD based cameras like the '150.
- Mikko
Who's comparing DV with P2? When talking tape we're talking about HDV. It's not relevant anyway because we're comparing media, not codec. A good HDV camera can put out footage that are equal or better than a comparable P2 camera.
Color space, resolution and many other things you care about do not depend on media. Well, not directly and entirely. And if you did not know, Panasonic still makes cameras that record DVCPROHD on medium-sized DV tape. Well, some call it DVCPRO tape, but it does not change the facts. You can also record DV onto P2, PD, SxS and CF.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Yeah tape is a nightmare, no thanks! So glad not to be using tape anymore, which I remember using for so long, ever since I started messing around for fun with friends on an old Panasonic handycam with MiniDV lol.
I'm trying to think of the best way to have someone handle BTS shooting on my feature film this summer. I want to use the HVX200s I already have, just have him use one of those to save costs (we're shooting the film on RED), because I think 720p footage is plenty good enough for BTS footage even on a Blu-ray release (they usually say only the feature is 1080p, some bonus materials may be SD, etc.). The only problem is I have just four 16 gig P2 cards, which wouldn't be enough for that person to record all day I don't think, even if they were just recording whatever is "interesting," I'm not sure. I guess that is 3 hours of filming, I'm not sure if I'd rather have the person record more to get whatever they can, or less to make it less of a freakin' nightmare to edit later. Otherwise, we're stuck with the person having to download the cards sometime during the day, potentially being unavailable to catch something really funny or cool that happens.
I think my DP has quite a few P2 cards, though, so maybe I can borrow a few...
I'm trying to think of the best way to have someone handle BTS shooting on my feature film this summer. I want to use the HVX200s I already have, just have him use one of those to save costs (we're shooting the film on RED), because I think 720p footage is plenty good enough for BTS footage even on a Blu-ray release (they usually say only the feature is 1080p, some bonus materials may be SD, etc.). The only problem is I have just four 16 gig P2 cards, which wouldn't be enough for that person to record all day I don't think, even if they were just recording whatever is "interesting," I'm not sure. I guess that is 3 hours of filming, I'm not sure if I'd rather have the person record more to get whatever they can, or less to make it less of a freakin' nightmare to edit later. Otherwise, we're stuck with the person having to download the cards sometime during the day, potentially being unavailable to catch something really funny or cool that happens.
I think my DP has quite a few P2 cards, though, so maybe I can borrow a few...
thekeygun
Well-known member
agreed!
You know, I had a client that wanted me to put what I shot on p2 to tape. People still want that hard copy. At least if something happened to that tape I sent off...I still have the originals on a hard drive.
I have had a number of occasions where the producer wanted the tape. It usually only takes me a few moments to explain that "this" hdd I am giving them is a better option - esp. since tape can only contain SD or HDV material. If they do want SD on tape at the end, again I can usually explain the benefits of HD on HDD.
And pre shoot if they ask for that, and Ive explained and they are satisfied, I know they would be happy with an SD master.
I can shoot for hours on end to p2 when shooting DV50 or 720 native.
These discussions always occur before shoot day and most are happy to bring a portable USB drive along to drop to.
And pre shoot if they ask for that, and Ive explained and they are satisfied, I know they would be happy with an SD master.
I can shoot for hours on end to p2 when shooting DV50 or 720 native.
These discussions always occur before shoot day and most are happy to bring a portable USB drive along to drop to.
xmephestox
Carbonite Member
like anything it depends on what your doing with it. P2 is a fantastic acquisition format. Re-usable, stable, solid. You find more problems with P2 with human error than you do hardware wise. It ends up being cheaper in the long run to shoot with, because of all this flexiblity, and great resolutions/data rates etc. etc.
but it is not an archival format. HARD DRIVES ARE NOT CONSIDERED AND ARCHIVAL MEDIUM!!! I've worked in a lot of broadcast environments, I still am, everything finds its way back to tape in one fashion or another.
Solid state is the present and future of acquisition, but tape still remains one of the best ways to archive, other than film. Properly stored it can give, you 25 years, plus.
and if the budget was there, and i had the choice of p2 or SR tape... it's not much of a debate. Tape still has a major place in work.
even LTO is a tape.
but it is not an archival format. HARD DRIVES ARE NOT CONSIDERED AND ARCHIVAL MEDIUM!!! I've worked in a lot of broadcast environments, I still am, everything finds its way back to tape in one fashion or another.
Solid state is the present and future of acquisition, but tape still remains one of the best ways to archive, other than film. Properly stored it can give, you 25 years, plus.
and if the budget was there, and i had the choice of p2 or SR tape... it's not much of a debate. Tape still has a major place in work.
even LTO is a tape.
P2 wins. And with some of the rental companies out there, you don't have to put out a ton of money for P2 cards if you need more than one or two for a shoot. I use p2rents.com, but that's just me.
DV tape is still much better than these cameras around with the onboard storage. They compress everything too much. And they're a pain for other reasons: I was using one of these a few weeks ago and it started acting funny on me once I got down to an hour of storage remaining. I was shooting parts of a music festival for a friend (it was his camera), and the camera asked me to push a button to restore the hard drive. Afraid that it would delete everything, I had to drive 45 minutes back home to back up the footage and restore. Then I had to drive back to the location and finish. It was a huge headache.
So long story short: If you don't have the dough for a P2 camera, go with the dv tapes. I like Sony's hdv camcorder, for example.
DV tape is still much better than these cameras around with the onboard storage. They compress everything too much. And they're a pain for other reasons: I was using one of these a few weeks ago and it started acting funny on me once I got down to an hour of storage remaining. I was shooting parts of a music festival for a friend (it was his camera), and the camera asked me to push a button to restore the hard drive. Afraid that it would delete everything, I had to drive 45 minutes back home to back up the footage and restore. Then I had to drive back to the location and finish. It was a huge headache.
So long story short: If you don't have the dough for a P2 camera, go with the dv tapes. I like Sony's hdv camcorder, for example.
ImpossibleBishop
Member
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this...
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this...
The concern of being able to archive video that has been shot without tape has been a problem for a while certainly. What I don't understand (and pardon me if I miss read some of the above posts) is why no one has mentioned Blu-Ray disk as the archival medium? (BTW I mean that in solely a file archival format) I mean, even 25gb on a single archival blu-ray disc is HUGE! The archival discs are like $1 a gb as far as I've seen, and they (apparently) last up to 200 years minimum. Regardless of whether or not they meet that test of time is irrelevant, if it lasts only 25-30 years, thats long enough. (Hell, alittle more evidence would be the use of XDCAM discs and archiving them.)
So in my mind, lose tape, buy a blu-ray burner and archive away.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this...
The concern of being able to archive video that has been shot without tape has been a problem for a while certainly. What I don't understand (and pardon me if I miss read some of the above posts) is why no one has mentioned Blu-Ray disk as the archival medium? (BTW I mean that in solely a file archival format) I mean, even 25gb on a single archival blu-ray disc is HUGE! The archival discs are like $1 a gb as far as I've seen, and they (apparently) last up to 200 years minimum. Regardless of whether or not they meet that test of time is irrelevant, if it lasts only 25-30 years, thats long enough. (Hell, alittle more evidence would be the use of XDCAM discs and archiving them.)
So in my mind, lose tape, buy a blu-ray burner and archive away.
emretufekci
Well-known member
I have a $60K Rimage with a custom built-in Blue-Ray P2 archiving solution.
Never used it. We still archive to VXA tapes.
PS: We had used the Archiving to DVD prior to tape and it just wasn't practical.
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