P2 8Gb vs Compact Flash 8GB

[Barry_Green]

Barry, yes, but the new SD cards (the sdhc) are also called SD cards, but are not compatible with old SD models. My doubt is: is there a possibility these new P2 would be similar? Like P2hc?

Not a chance. What's inside the P2 card is irrelevant, what's relevant is how it speaks to the camcorder. Spec-Comm has already proven that by designing the CinePorter -- it's a hard disk, but it presents itself to the camera as a p2 card.

How much different is a hard disk from an SD card? A whole lot more different than an SDHC card is from an SD card, I'm sure of that!

Panasonic's sold tens of thousands of these cameras to broadcasters, networks, companies large and small, and end consumers. They've been selling P2 for three years now. There's no chance (read that as NO CHANCE) that they'd make the existing product incompatible. We'll find out soon enough when the 16GB cards are released, but I say there's not a chance at all that P2 cards based on SDHC would be incompatible with P2 cards based on SD. No chance whatsoever.

 

[harddrive]

The reasons I read into it is that Infinity is extremely overdue and there have been plenty of rumors that they'll *never* introduce it. Why waste breath debating a product that may never see the light of day?

Rumours from where? With what substantiation? The latest I've seen is here - http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7628.html - and this talks not of "never seeing the light of day", but that a "special factory has been built to manufacture the Infinity". This story complements others I've read - can you supply references to back up the rumours you've heard? In the absence of that, the rumours seem the worst type of FUD, and of the type that I doubt you would tolerate (rightly) if they were applied to a Panasonic product without corroboration.

You're approaching the whole process entirely wrong, and until you recognize that and open your eyes, you're not going to "get it."

P2 is not meant to be a record-to-it-and-then-offload-it media. That's what we have to do now, yes, but that's not what it's about.

In which case, how is P2 offering a real advantage over CF, given what you say? Yes, the POTENTIAL speed of P2 may be better than current CF, but in practical use P2 is generally limited by other factors. And yes, the other factors may increase with time, but then so are CF speeds likely to.

The media can support six streams of DVCPRO-HD 1080 in real time. You can't do that with a hard disk. You can't do that with a five-disk RAID. Even a top-of-the-line G-RAID system will only guarantee three streams! P2 can easily handle six. Of 1080.

"Easily" handle six? That's not leaving much overhead, is it? And even if the media can support it, other elements of the vast majority of systems are unlikely to, so the overall performance is unlikely to be much different to a system with hard disk. And (as at the moment) it only matters in complicated sequences with many layers, for the times it occurs you can always render.

When you have 128GB cards, you're going to have 10 HOURS of footage on two cards in-camera. Why on earth would you want to transfer that to a slow, pokey, pig-slow hard disk to edit?

For security? And for that reason, I'd want to transfer it twice. And to enable daily viewing of rushes? And you presuppose only one camera. For a shoot lasting maybe two weeks, do you really want the only copy of all the material remaining in camera from beginning to end? And conceivably, cameras and cards may be hired for filming, returned at the end. There's quite a few reasons besides technology that will keep downloading the norm for many projects.

So you want to believe that DVCPRO-HD is 100 megabits, and some CompactFlash cards can write 10 megabytes per second and soon may be able to handle 20, and think that's enough? That's nowhere near enough for the workflow to be realized. That's tunnel vision. Short-sightedness.

If what you quoted was true, then just maybe I am short sighted and have tunnel vision. But the specs you quote are incorrect nowadays. Don't take my word for it - just look at Sandisks specs, which are fairly representative http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Catalog(1024)-SanDisk_Extreme_III_CompactFlash.aspx . That's the Extreme III range, a minimum 20MB per second, and that has been available for quite a while relatively cheaply, even in a 16GB version! Alternatively, the Extreme IV range gives up to 40MBs, and has also been available for a considerable time. 40MBs equates to 320Mbs, so half the speed of P2 anyway, and who knows what the spec will be in another year?

I don't "want to believe" anything that isn't verifiably true, and hopefully that link settles the current speed of CF.

I personally don't think 8's or 16's are enough, but I think 32's probably are. 64's definitely are. When 128's arrive, you could do an ENTIRE FEATURE FILM in-camera! 90 minutes at a 6:1 ratio, in-camera all at once.

Are you sure? 90 minutes at 6:1 equates to 9 hours of rushes, and surely a 128GB card will give about 2 hours of recording? Hence will 4-5 cards not be necessary?

As for bigger cards, then yes indeed. But CF has been available in a 16GB size for a long time, 32 Gb expected soon. Conceivably 32GB CF may arrive before 16GB P2.

You're not going to see 100 megabit DVCPRO-HD stored on a 110-megabit CF card. That workflow is nearly pointless. You probably won't see AVC-Intra on that CF card either.

On the card you mention, maybe not. But just look through the spec sheet for Sandisk, or any of the big manufacturers. CF specs are no longer 110megabit, the highest spec ones are about three times that!

 

[Glazarus]

RED ONE can record 4K RAW on a CompactFlash SanDisk Extreme IV 8gb card.
Compared to RED ONE, the HVX200 footage is pretty bleh to me and people here say it is not possible to record footage onto that kind of CompactFlash?

There is something very wrong here.

 

[augenblick]

"There is something very wrong here."

Yeah, you are!

Raw? Hahaha.

RAW 2K in 4:2:2 Colorspace will give you more than 6MB of disc space PER FRAME!

RAW 4K on CompactFlash Hahaha.

Peter

 

[mico]

Red cannot shoot 4K raw on CF it shoots REDCODE RAW 4K on CF. Two different things. A big difference as Redcode raw is a REds proprietary wavlet compressed format that RED says is visualy lossless and almost indescernable side by side with 4K raw RED footage. The only way to get 4k raw out of the RED is with the add on module RAW port that costs an additional $6500 and would need a large disk array to capture the footage.

I think what makes people upset is that RED has figured out how to get high quality footage onto low cost CF cards and Panasonic with its big bank has given us a slow in coming and expensive P2 format whose speed is being matched by CF cards like the extreme IV.

 

[THoff]

I think what makes people upset is that RED has figured out how to get high quality footage onto low cost CF cards and Panasonic with its big bank has given us a slow in coming and expensive P2 format whose speed is being matched by CF cards like the extreme IV.

Even that is something that RED has only promised, but not delivered yet. Anyone who thinks a $500 CF adapter will replace the $4500 64GB RED RAM device or an external RAID array is smoking something good.

 

[Glazarus]

It's still looking better then the HVX200 so I still think that the P2 cards is a very bad way of making movies. Comparing the price between the cameras and what you need, the Red delivers so much more for it's price and the HVX200 delivers so much less for it's price.

 

[mico]

It's still looking better then the HVX200 so I still think that the P2 cards is a very bad way of making movies. Comparing the price between the cameras and what you need, the Red delivers so much more for it's price and the HVX200 delivers so much less for it's price.

You're looking only at the p2 cost issues you have in relation to RED. Its going to cost you over $25,000 minimum not including lens cost to shoot with the Red. The cheapest zoom lens for the red is their own 18-50mm and that alone is $6500. You're over $30,000 just for a basic package. Much more expensive but yes the quality will be much better too. I like P2 I like it alot. I think its an excellent way to make movies. they are like reusable film magazines just like 99% of movies have been made. But I do not like the price of P2 and the difficulty in thier availability.
Also you can only get 4 minutes of shooting REDcode Raw on a 8 gig CF card. The Cf option was not meant to be your primary shooting medium. Its for those times where heavy vibration makes the RED drive unusable. Remember the Red ram is a $4500 option and that only holdds 64gb of flash.

Even that is something that RED has only promised, but not delivered yet. Anyone who thinks a $500 CF adapter will replace the $4500 64GB RED RAM device or an external RAID array is smoking something good.

Yes none of the RED or its parts have been released although several films are now shooting with it. Jannard recently wrote that getting the CF option is a must for everyone. So with the progress he's made so far I would say that the CF option will be a reality but what its feature limitations will be as opposed to the RED Ram no one but RED knows yet. Will it have one slot ? two slots for cf cards? . can you raid the cf? No one knows what they have up thier sleeve. They might surprise you.

Again wht I beleieve is the issue for some is that Panasonic decided to go with a proprietary P2 card that are expensive and as time flew by others , like RED, have shown that non proprietary flash cards can be fast enough to get good footage down. The fustration of Panasonic not looking at the little guys pocketbook in choosing the path they decided on.

 

[harddrive]

You're looking only at the p2 cost issues you have in relation to RED.

Yes, absolutely. The Red will be a far more expensive camera than the HVX200 (or the Z1, the JVC HD200 etc for that matter) and it shouldn't come as a surprise that it is likely to produce much nicer images than any of them. Just as they all produce far better pictures than cheap consumer cameras.

........P2 format whose speed is being matched by CF cards like the extreme IV.

Almost. If you look at the links I quoted above, (many months ago.....) then Extreme IV is rated at at 320Mbs, which is only half that of P2. But in most respects that is academic at the moment as most systems are unlikely to take advantage of even 320Mbs speeds.

What has really changed since I last posted in this thread (February) is Sonys and Sandisks announcement of SxS at NAB. No longer is the rival to Panasonic and P2 solely GV and Compact Flash. And whilst the vast majority of people here seem to have mainly positive things to say about the HVX200 , Panasonic cameras in general, and many of the concepts underlying solid state in principle, I am detecting a gradual realisation that other solid state formats may have advantages over P2 in principle - SxS and CF being the obvious examples.

But all this is looking into the future. One thing that must be said is that P2 is available today, and if you need a new camera today...... But I know a lot of people who are considering the next generation replacements "sometime soon". Some of those are now looking much less hard at P2 cameras than they were 6-12 months ago.

 

[mico]

Almost. If you look at the links I quoted above, (many months ago.....) then Extreme IV is rated at at 320Mbs, which is only half that of P2. But in most respects that is academic at the moment as most systems are unlikely to take advantage of even 320Mbs speeds.


Which is more than fast enough for DVCPROHD if I'm not mistaken. Could not have Panasonic made another card that was slower but still able to shoot DVCPROHD on the hvx200 and bring the cost down on cards?

 

[Glazarus]

I estimated the cost of buying everything I need to use RED from shooting to final film to be in my case about $25500. The final footage with that camera will be as good as a major studios footage.
It's unnecessary to buy their lenses when you can use Nikon lenses on it, so the cost of a set of good primes will never go up to the price of their lenses. If I want a PL lens I can rent one.
In that package I included the CF module, two CF cards and one RED HDD.

RED RAM will work like a CF card, it just stores alot more and that's why it's more expensive.

Shooting with two CF cards is just like shooting with two P2 cards. One is loading onto a harddrive and one is in the camera. Simple and cheap compared to P2. If REDCODE RAW 4K is able to fit 4,5 minute of footage on a CF Extreme IV 8b card, then panasonic made a really bad compression for the HVX200.

The reason I'm in here is that I want to know if there is a possibility that a CF module for the HVX200 might become a possibility. If so, the cost of shooting with a HVX dropped significantly.

 

[TimurCivan]

Use the red. Dont use the HVX200. Problem solved. no need to put down a technology thats making thousands of people a handsome living.

This conversation has been going on long enough, its rolled over itself 10 times by now.

We get it. Technology from 3 years ago isnt as efficient as technology that will be produced in a years time.

Go make movies, videos, with your prefered formats and quit complaining about a system you dont even seem to use. All of you.