P2 8Gb vs Compact Flash 8GB

[raptor44]

Just saw on Engadget the new 128GB SSD disk Sata from A-Data...
So went to their site and saw 8GB fast speed Compact Flash.
Checked for price in one online reseller $ 95 more or less.
Here are the specifications:
Model
Brand A-DATA
Model 120x 8G
Type Compact Flash (CF)
Tech Spec
Capacity 8GB
Speed 120X (18MB/s)
Features Conforms to Compact Flash Card specification standard
Fully compatible with PC Card ATA specification
Support PIO mode 6
Support Error Correcting Code (ECC) function to detect and correct errors.
Support power down commands and sleep mode
Support Wear Leverage function to maximize data endurance.
Non-volatile storage(no battery required)

So my question is: is 18Mb/sec enough for DvcPro HD? Yes!
So can anybody tell me why we should pay $ 1.000 for the same from Pana?

Thank you!

Rap
:furious3:

 

[griffin86]

Well Panasonic claims that p2 tech is capable of 100Mbps, so 18bps would simply not be be fast enough... Being that DVCPRO HD operates at with a large data stream of 100Mbps; the standard Compact Flash Memory Card may not be enough even for DV NTSC/ DVCPRO25 which has a data transfer rate of 25 Mbps...
If I am wrong however, someone more knowledgable should please contribute.

just 2 cents,
elijah

 

[Spec-Comm]

There is a lot more going on in the P2 card than just dumping data onto it at 100Mbps. The P2 cards actually have speeds up to 600Mbps.

Amazing Technology!

Best regards,

Andrew Hoffman

 

[griffin86]

Wow, so there it is!(read the pdf sheet on the pana p2 page)
I guess your paying basically for the highest possible transfer rate in practical data storage technology... Besides, if you really think of it, there's isn't any practicality in the p2 cards being super-cheap. The medium has several advantages over others such as film and tape (not speaking of visual differences or anything, strictly speaking storage) that eventually should prove its weight in gold... just do a forum search on the cost of 35mm and 16 mm rolls of film and you'll see what i am saying... A p2 card is the equivalent of an unlimited number of 1000' 16mm film stocks in a way... You record based on your settings for a (currently short duration) and then export to RAID Array, erase p2 card and start again- a lot faster than it's alternatives...

I think your paying for never having to Log and Capture...
No more Drop-outs in recordings...
And other stuff that's been pretty beat to death around here...

peace,
elijah

p.s.- i still think the cards still abit steep in price anyhow... but a worthwhile investment nonetheless- i can't wait to plunk down that serious cash!

 

[harddrive]

Well Panasonic claims that p2 tech is capable of 100Mbps, so 18bps would simply not be be fast enough... Being that DVCPRO HD operates at with a large data stream of 100Mbps;...........

The speeds for DVCProHD are correct, but don't confuse bits with bytes - CF is NOT 18Mbps, but 18MBytes/sec, or 144Mbs. (That's actually a bit low for pro CF - standard pro is often 20MBs (160Mbs), though the most expensive can be twice as fast.) Hence it's got a 50% safety overhead for even 100Mbs, and is SIX times the speed necessary for standard DV!

So can anybody tell me why we should pay $ 1.000 for the same from Pana?

I certainly can't! The question is really now no longer hypothetical, with Infinity having proved that CF is more than capable of recording broadcast standard HD video. In this thread http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=61560&page=5 the whole subject of P2 v CF and SD was heavily discussed - see esp posts 46-56.

I asked at one point: "What real life, practical advantages will P2 give the HPX2000 that CF will deprive the Infinity of?", to which Jan gave the answer:

Faster offloads. Spanned clips. Longer record times by virtue of multiple cards, probably others if I think about it.

Frankly that answer doesn't convince me, and to my reply: "Offloads seem to be limited by the speed of the other devices in general, not the memory card. Spanned clips I understand CF will support as well as P2. (see above) CF will also support multiple cards and record time doesn't seem too much an issue. 16GB P2 cards may well arrive next year, but 32GB Compact Flash are likely at the same time. So my question still stands." I have still not got a satisfactory answer.

Panasonic are always very keen to point to how complex the P2 cards (and hence why so expensive), but not so good at saying what that complexity means in practice.

 

[raptor44]

Thanks HD...you saved my post....and my thoughts.....

It still has to come out, the real reason for that P2 high costs...
It' looks more and more like the printer's industry policy: where the printer is soo cheap but then you pay so much for refills....
I've rather preferred to pay 6000 for the HVX and then 300 for each 8GB...

Thank also for that link, very interesting discussion with a Pana guy!

rap

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

So how do you figure that 18Mbps is good enough for 100Mbs. Perhaps you meant 18MB? Then it is still borderline or at least our engineers believe this to be true. There needs to be overhead for sustained record. Additionally there is a lot more going on in the p2 Card than meets the eye. And if it wasn't fast, then several years from now it would be the solwest link in the chain. You have to plan for the future.



best,

Jan

 

[harddrive]

It still has to come out, the real reason for that P2 high costs...
It' looks more and more like the printer's industry policy: where the printer is soo cheap but then you pay so much for refills....

I don't see any conspiracies here. I'm quite happy to believe that they cost a lot more because they are far more expensive to manufacture, and yes, made to a very high standard.

But the problem from Panasonics point of view is that technology has moved on extremely quickly since the system was developed, and frankly their complexity is no longer generally necessary - as made abundantly clear by Grass Valley and Infinity.

So what can Panasonic do? At the moment, they have the position where solid state video=P2. The real problem comes when other products hit the market with much lower memory costs, and I'm sure Infinity is the first of many. At that point P2 becomes more and more untenable, and it's already rumoured that the succesor to the HVX is more likely to use SD than P2. But as these cameras come to market, spinning that a complex and hence expensive solution is necessary is going to become more and more difficult to do. With the form factor being less and less native to modern PCs, P2 looks even less attractive.

But my question still stands, and I'll be more than happy to take the above back if anybody can point out real benefits to the average user. "What real life, practical advantages will P2 give the HPX2000 that CF will deprive the Infinity of?"

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

But my question still stands, and I'll be more than happy to take the above back if anybody can point out real benefits to the average user. "What real life, practical advantages will P2 give the HPX2000 that CF will deprive the Infinity of?"

I guess the real point is that you can use the P2 Technology today. When the other delivers, then it can be debated.

Best,

Jan

 

[harddrive]

So how do you figure that 18Mbps is good enough for 100Mbs. Perhaps you meant 18MB?

raptor44 put MB in his query (post1). Another contributor misquoted him.

Then it is still borderline or at least our engineers believe this to be true.

18MBs is not fast for CF, 20MBs is common, and 40MBs available. More than enough overhead, much more cheaply, and likely to get faster still. And data rates are likely to come lower - yourselves with AVC-Intra at 50Mbs and Infinity with JPEG2000 at around 75Mbs.

And if it wasn't fast, then several years from now it would be the solwest link in the chain. You have to plan for the future.

Yes, but in most peoples experiences at the moment, transfer speeds are limited to of the order of 100-130Mbs by other factors, with the P2 store even slower. Maybe these will improve, but then so will CF technology.

As for the future, I rate capacity and cost to be far more relevant than max possible speed. With CF available in cards at twice the size of the largest P2 card (16GB v 8GB), and a fraction of the cost, I consider this far more significant than any potential speed advantage that hardly anyone can take advantage of at the moment.

 

[harddrive]

I guess the real point is that you can use the P2 Technology today. When the other delivers, then it can be debated.

Fair point, though I did say "At the moment, they have the position where solid state video=P2."

But my question was referring to the HPX2000 and Infinity, neither of which are currently actually shipping. (Last I heard.) When they are both available, then rest assured I look forward to that debate!

 

[SPZ]

I believe that, more than this debate about pricing, is the availability of bigger storage cards. Having the cf format just released a single 8gb card, and being 4gb and 8gb sd cards already available, it would make sense that higher capacity P2 cards would already be in the market. Another point is that P2 is, as we know, a raid of sd cards, so even with 0 failure cards, it would make sense that a 4gb card would cost fairly cheaper than it is costing today, as well as the 8gb card, since 1gb FAST sd cards are going for 15 euros over here, for example, and 2gb are going for 30.

The high prices made sense at the beginning. Nowadays, it just feels a bit too much, and don't make rational sense. Charging 1000 Dollars for a 16gb, however... That makes better sense.

 

[raptor44]

Thank you both HD and Jan, for this interesting debate...

I just would like to add, as maybe Jan is aware of, that HVX user (almost 180 of them) are trying to get toghether to get a better price, what does mean this to Pana?

A) as Jan eneded: ...we'll debate when CF from Grass Valley will come out... this sounds to me, as european, as Pana has the monopoly of the solid state Hd market so can make any price they want. And it's not nice to loyal customers.

B) As in the posts of P2 Buy discussion, the cost is not that much from Pana but distributors are the ones that want to make a lot from it, up to 3/4 times the Pana price.. And again this is not nice/fare for us loyal Pana customers.

So wich is the answer? Should I make a poll out of it?
a) Pana monopoly
b) Distributor overcharge
c) Both

So after 2 Pana DVCpro50 cameras, 3 VTRs DVCpro, and now the HVX waht we'd do to let Pana to be more responsable to loyal customers as my company is?

Maybe not in the US, but here in UE the main reason that is stopping production companies to buy P2 cam is P2 costs.

Waiting for THE answer, if not I'll make the poll...:badputer:

 

[ullanta]

So wich is the answer? Should I make a poll out of it?
a) Pana monopoly
b) Distributor overcharge
c) Both

Reminds me of a joke I heard on the PHC today: A bunch of kids in a classroom are playing with a new rabbit, and they're trying to determine if it's male or female, and one says "we should just vote on it".


----------

Come on, folks. You have to accept:
1) Panasonic is in business to make a profit
2) Making a profit is the result of delivering good products at a fair price and by developing/maintaining a reputation for such

If there was a way that Panasonic could make a profit by selling us each 5 8GB cards (or 32 GB cards) for $100 each, they would certainly do it. This would be a huge step for Panasonic in its competition against the growing number of HDV cameras, and prevent risk of P2 cameras being "orphaned". If Panasonic could have a 16GB on the street today, at any price, they'd have it out, just to stay as close to their roadmap as possible and make the future of their whole P2 product line look more promising. Sadly, I think it's reasonable for at least some segments of the HVX crowd to be re-evaluating the benefits of P2 as the competition toughens and the P2 progress seems a little slower than we'd all hoped - but the idea of Panasonic deliberately keeping prices up and and supplies low, holding off progress of new cards to sell old ones... that's just ridiculous from a business point of view.

 

[raptor44]

... but the idea of Panasonic deliberately keeping prices up and and supplies low, holding off progress of new cards to sell old ones... that's just ridiculous from a business point of view.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Ullanta,

but you can't quote my reply and then put under my thoughts something I didn't ok?
As the words above are just your thoughts not mine at all !!
I'm here to debate with nice people that respect each other as you are not.
So keep your propaganda away from here. Thank you.
I wonder how you can be a Senior Member....

 

[ullanta]

Sorry, Raptor - I should have made clear that there were two parts to the post; only the little joke was a specific response to your post; the second paragraph was a general response to the thread.

As for how to be a senior member... no wondering is necessary, they just go by number of posts! Anyway, I've been here since 2003, and this is the first time, I think, I've been called disrespectful - not a bad run!

;-) Barry

 

[Barry_Green]

If anyone thinks they can make a card cheaper, the world will beat a path to your doorstep. Panasonic's already said that if someone can make cards that meet their quality standards, for less, they'd hand over a purchase order for 1,000 of 'em right now.

Especially that they've had major deals with big networks. You can bet that the Australian Broadcasting Corp., Fox, Raycom, NDTV, and others are going to be demanding large capacities and cheap prices. So the pressure is on for them to deliver bigger/faster/cheaper. If they can't, and you think you can, then this is what someone would determine to be a "prime business opportunity".

 

[ozduc]

Has anyone seen that "dead horse beating" stick?

I would just like to remind those that want to ***** and moan about prices, that just 10 years ago, I paid $2500 for a 9gb, yes NINE gig hard drive, that was the size of a house brick. Technology moves fast, obviously not fast enough for some people. The price of solid state storage will come down. P2 is not the same as CF or SD. If it was there would be a bunch of manufaturers making cards and the prices would be lower. As it is now, all the R & D has been done by Panasonic, so they have to recoup their costs. I would much rather pay $1100 for an 8gb card than $2500 for a 9gb house brick. Either way it has been a cost of doing business. To be able to acquire amazing HD footage, in a package costing under $10,000 to me is just incredible. Just a few years ago this would have cost you closer to $100,000 to do.
Bottom line is if you can't afford the associated costs of doing business in High Definition, then maybe you should stick to mini dv until you can.

BTW, I still have that 9gb hard drive if anyone is interested. I'll let it go at a great price

 

[Avenger007]

I think it is still hard to excuse the possibility that panasonic has at least some sort of "exclusive factor" tax on these devices. The fact that it is a new technology is certainly a marketing tool. Not to mention that high card prices can aid in any mark downs they feel necessary to keep the HVX camera competitive in the latest HDV market.

No one else can offer this sort of workflow, not even sony's flagship cinealta. If I was in a business position, I would certainly capitalize on this. Also, in my opinion, once the 16gb cards release, it is in panasonic's best interest to price them similarly to the current 8gb cards and allow the price to trickle down from there (16gb for $1000, 8gb for $500, and 4gb for $250). If they try to keep the card prices the same, it won't be an attractive upgrade. These also need to release promptly after NAB, otherwise fans of the medium will start to turn towards alternatives such as CF and further question the P2 future.

I have personally already felt the limitations of P2 last month when we shot a 30 minute narrative inside of a jail cell on an HVX. The project was 1080/24pA and shot in one take. Obviously we couldn't use P2 (limited to only 16minutes with 8gb cards) and given the complexity of the shot we couldn't rely on a firestore (wouldn't record for that long without giving us problems). If you consider a 5 or 6 minute scene, which is normal in a narrative, you only have the opertunity to shoot, at most, 3 takes before having to dump. That can absolutely kill a magic moment.

I think panasonic is doing their best to deliver expanded memory, but i think most of us were expecting a 16gb alternative to arrive earlier in the HVX's life. I'm sure broadcasters are itching to use dual (or 5 in the upcoming cameras) 32gb cards at some point. Regardless, P2 is the best format I've seen/been able to work with to date. But we'll always have complaints, thats a given

 

[ozduc]

I have personally already felt the limitations of P2 last month when we shot a 30 minute narrative inside of a jail cell on an HVX. The project was 1080/24pA and shot in one take. Obviously we couldn't use P2 (limited to only 16minutes with 8gb cards) and given the complexity of the shot we couldn't rely on a firestore (wouldn't record for that long without giving us problems).

Then maybe you aren't aware of the fact that you can take a full card out and replace it with an empty one, while you continue to shoot on the 2nd card slot. In effect allowing you to shoot continuously for an indefinite period as long as the camera has a power supply. I dont see that as a limitation of P2. In fact you cant do that with a tape based camera.

If you consider a 5 or 6 minute scene, which is normal in a narrative, you only have the opertunity to shoot, at most, 3 takes before having to dump. That can absolutely kill a magic moment.

Again, refer to my first comment. If all you have is 2 cards, then that is a limitation of your wallet not of the P2 foramt. There is such a thing as rental houses. For $50-$60 a day, you could have another 2 cards on set and shoot continuously for those "magic moments".