C100: overexpose or underexpose on WIDE DR ?

[MattDavis]

Can you explain more about why you guys decided on the c100, my issue with the camera is the usable DR, much like the complaints of the OP, I find that the noise and detail in the darks of the c100 is more similar to a DSLR than a c300

All my tests, and my subsequent work, with the C100 showed it to make an image that - whilst it has its little niggles and faults, is much more the sort of picture my clients like over, say, the FS100. I get on with grading the C100 far better, and I am no longer fighting for control over highlights. Yes, there's a bit more noise, but there's a bit more bite and detail too, and skin tones look less plastic. The C100 looks more like the EX1 and has a really good go at looking like an F3 - both cameras much lauded in my corner of the industry.

A WDR shot:

The same scene as C-Log:

So, I don't see the 'DSLR' style 'blacks fall off a cliff' that you report. I might wriggle my C-Log shot to look more like the WDR, and I may shoot WDR in a multitude of situations - heck, it even worked for a chromakey shoot - and although it was shot to a PIX220, I had a go with the AVCHD, and that was 'good enough'.

Here's some more AVCHD stuff -

Not much noise there - the problem is the codec, not the noise. I'd prefer to worry about this.

But it's not all bad (again, AVCHD): It's pretty clean. Bit of boil in the shadows, but nothing to cause huge issues.

Can the C100 misbehave? Sure it can, and then some. Sorry about the following crappy examples, but I was caning the compressor to make it do something horrible. Frame 1 of something shot at 18dB, zoomed 'nearest neighbor' by 300%. Messy:

Now for the next freakin' frame - which I bet you the first one above is a full "I" key Frame, and this one below is a soft and rather stressed (interlace style) "B" frame.

The interlace artefacts crop up only in the BB part of the cadence, and if I ingest as ProRes using 5DtoRGB or in FCPX, the problem is diminished (or maybe it was the coffee).

I worked darn hard to make the C100 do that. But I'll trade that for the magenta/green twinkles on edges near highlights in 'other' cameras, or their genuine precipitous black fall off. And, if I put my editor hat on even firmer, I'll trade the 'flat PP' DLSR footage for C100 WDR and C-Log every time. EVERY TIME, no exceptions. I'll put C100 next to F3 and C300. I have no F5 envy, Scarlet doesn't quite make it in my industry niche, 305s make pictures only an engineer would love. EX1s and EX3s with NanoFlash or Ninja are still popular for good reason, dispite the noise.

Bad for web? (this was uploaded by the client - sorry about the thumbnail)

There's plenty of other challenges in videography rather than worrying (obsessing?) about noise. :smile:

Addition for clarification - the video posted above DOES have noise, lots of it in certain places. However, most of the issues in the movie are to do with extreme motion within shots, use of dissolves, big changes in luminance, strong colours, and guess what - the audience doesn't see any of that. They're not examining the intensely detailed structure of the cloth of our two main spokespeople. They gloss over the crude dolly moves that got smooth-cammed. they want to attend, and that's the bottom line for this video. Just noticed that this version isn't the final, so I humbly apologise for the little bumps and dinks you may see. The final version will probably crop up elsewhere but I'll leave this as a 'Warts and All' example.

FWIW (some people like to know), during the early shooting, my 80-200 2.8 literally fell apart, so it was mostly 24-105 with bits of 17-55.

 

[dustylense]

Good stuff Matt. Good stuff indeed!

 

[mhood]

This is actually therapeutic for me...thank you all.

 

[RZE]

If you shoot corporate stuff or events then yea its a better camera, noise and detail doesn't matter, but if you'r going through a full post production workflow, limited DR and noise in a 8 bit file will not be that easy to work with.

There's plenty of other challenges in videography rather than worrying (obsessing?) about noise. :smile:

???

I asked the question, what lead someone to choose it for a feature, AVCHD is a risk in that world, pulling a secondaries key on AVCHD is not reliable for professional work, I'm left with 220 mbs 422 which yields a noisier image than AVCHD. Hence my issues. If you do videography then theres not a single problem with the camera, but on the other hand no sufficiently budgeted production would shoot on it. Im in a secondary market of SF, but still, I haven't seen a single rental house carry this camera. The ones I have talked to have no interest in it.

 

[dustylense]

???

I asked the question, what lead someone to choose it for a feature, AVCHD is a risk in that world, pulling a secondaries key on AVCHD is not reliable for professional work, I'm left with 220 mbs 422 which yields a noisier image than AVCHD. Hence my issues. If you do videography then theres not a single problem with the camera, but on the other hand no sufficiently budgeted production would shoot on it. Im in a secondary market of SF, but still, I haven't seen a single rental house carry this camera. The ones I have talked to have no interest in it.

Cool story bro.

The reason you see more "noise" in your 220 mbit 422 footage is that it's recording I-frame material uncompressed to the recorder off the sensor. Hence, no internal processing. Meaning, no sharpening, no NR, no frame blend(IBP). The reason you don't see it for rent in "your" market is that MAYBE the rental house up the street has a few C300's laying around. C300's rent like hot cakes. I wonder why?
wanna rent the C100? Here ya go. I've used them many times and the service is excellent: http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/video/cameras/canon/canon-eos-c100-ef-camcorder

The bottom line is that the C100 is made for the HDSLR shooter that wants a proper camera and a boost in quality. If you have the budget to shoot a feature narrative, rent the Alexa. If you want to own a great camera that has lot's of features, buy the C100, the FS700, or even an AF100.

 

[MattDavis]

RZE - love you, man....

the noise has more impact on web compression than the original image. That's why it's still a low end cam even for web

and then...

If you do videography then theres not a single problem with the camera, but on the other hand no sufficiently budgeted production would shoot on it. Im in a secondary market of SF, but still, I haven't seen a single rental house carry this camera. The ones I have talked to have no interest in it.

There's plenty of people here who are 'web videographers' doing six figure turnover. You're calling "low end even for the web" and it does sound a little like widdling on parades.

I've seen, paid to watch, and enjoyed features shot on a PD150.

I'm left with 220 mbs 422 which yields a noisier image than AVCHD. Hence my issues.

Eheu!

And you haven't mentioned rolling shutter which plays havoc with motion tracking. If you're doing motion tracked green screen work, you can work very hard with many of the low end cameras, but perhaps you - RZE - are better off renting an F55 with its mechanical shutter, 4K on-board and all that jazz.

The reason rental houses aren't going to stock C100s is because we buy the bloody things ourselves! There is no rental market as such for the C100, just like there is no rental market for the Colour TV any more. They are so affordable that to rent one would be stupid. You may wish to rent a 105" 4K plasma display because you don't need to spend $25k for the week you need it.

So, rental markets won't want to get involved renting C100s out because the people who need to rent a C100 rather than buy one aren't exactly a good rental bet anyway. You can rent a 5Dmk2 body and some glass because you want a spare. There's probably a few companies in the UK which WILL rent a C100, but you will have to jump through the hoops you'd require to hire a much more expensive camera, and it's likely that you're hiring a B-cam because you own your own A Cam.

Any 'sufficiently budgeted production' will buy/rent the best camera they can afford: dirt poor - DSLR or BMCC. Spotty faced youf - F5. Budding beauty - Epic, maybe Scarlet. Debutant - Alexa. I don't see any of this to be a valid reason to widdle all over the C100.

RZE, you have a perfect camera in mind - just like any Gumball Rally driver is seeking for the perfect ride. In the C100 forum, it's like talking Mini Coopers. If you'd prefer a Dodge Viper, please go to a Dodge Viper meet whilst we have fun (and profit, BTW) with our Mini Coopers.

 

[dustylense]

My C100 will be paid off next week RZE. I've had it for 3 days. And I sold the BMCC which paid itself off in 2 days. Took the money I made off the job plus the money I got back from the BMCC resale and profited off the two jobs I shot with the BMCC and one I finished with the C100. THe C100 is a total JOY to work with. Even if it's low end for web work! LOL. Quote of the year!

 

[RZE]

Matt don't worry I'm done with c100 for anything important, I was just hear to find the answers to the problems of the camera. I've posted many times with no real response, redusers are arrogant, but they are not misers like here when it comes to information, frustration lead to more implicative comments which has yielded more information for me than polite or endearing requests. AVCHD secondary keys are not good, noise reduction results for 422 prores 8 bit is not good, detail in the darks are not good, anything over 3 stops under has noise and little to no detail, and undersaturated colors. I don't care about visible noise, I care about inherent noise that will create DSLR type macro blocking when encoding for the web that is more distracting.
I advocated this camera since the beginning and believed it could excel at narrative and really wanted to be wrong about my suspicions.
http://nofilmschool.com/2013/01/canon-c100-vs-c300-review-short-scene/
I guess I don't have the "its good enough" mentality anymore.

 

[squig]

My C100 will be paid off next week RZE. I've had it for 3 days. And I sold the BMCC which paid itself off in 2 days. Took the money I made off the job plus the money I got back from the BMCC resale and profited off the two jobs I shot with the BMCC and one I finished with the C100. THe C100 is a total JOY to work with. Even if it's low end for web work! LOL. Quote of the year!

Hey dusty I'm curious why you sold off the BMCC. It and the C100 are the 2 current contenders for my feature.

RZE have you looked at lens cap noise tests from the C100 and 5D MKIII? I am seeing a very subtle faint kinda grey fog at all ISOs on the C100 (least noisy at 850) but crushing the blacks in real world footage seems to deal with it in most situations. I'll see what I can do with it in neat video. The noise does look more organic than the fixed pattern noise on the 5D. Noise doesn't bother me if it looks like grain.

I bitched and moaned about the C100 when it came out because it doesn't do 60p and AVCHD sux arse but name another camera in the same price range (other than the BMCC and F3) that looks as cinematic?

Most of the lighting in my film is gonna be low key so the shadows are a big concern but overall I'm liking what I'm seeing from the C100 (prores) and BMCC a lot more than what I've seen from the sub 10k Sonys. The noise from the Sonys does look more organic than Canons but they just look lifeless and I find them a real challenge to grade.

3 weeks till NAB, maybe a new contender will emerge, a 2k 7DC?

 

[Matt Turner]

The bottom line is that the C100 is made for the HDSLR shooter that wants a proper camera and a boost in quality.

Right! And 99.9% of those shooters and their clients and their viewers don't pixel peep, they just like what they see after putting up with DSLRs and video cameras.

I think it's excellent that people like RZE push it to the limit and report their findings. I think tho RZE (based on your other posts) that you need a $25k camera not a $6k camera!

RZE you might also find that at the C100 level there's only a small number of pros that are regular posters, most owners simply won't have the time, equipment and in depth knowledge to put it through its paces similar to what you are doing. So I really appreciate your posts and read them all.

But I still love my C100!

 

[squig]

I dunno, is it really worth paying that much more for an F5 or F55 just for slo mo, a bit more DR, and a global shutter? It's a moot point if you don't have the 25k to begin with. You go to war with the army you have not the army you wish you had.

Is anyone having any issues with judder or flickering in wide high contrast landscape pans?

 

[swanny]

The short answer to why anyone would choose the c100 for a feature, is that while it does have a few drawbacks, it's a great camera and EVERY camera has its weak points! People have different views on what they are willing to work around. As stated earlier, you have to look at the price point. Are there better cameras for a feature? yes! Are there worse? Absolutely! Every one of them have a different price tag on them. If someone had to film a feature with a budget of each cam being $6000, name a better one that has less quirks. The c100 isn't perfect, but neither are any other sub $10k cameras.

 

[swanny]

I like squigs reference about going to war with the army you have.

 

[RZE]

Right! And 99.9% of those shooters and their clients and their viewers don't pixel peep, they just like what they see after putting up with DSLRs and video cameras.

I think it's excellent that people like RZE push it to the limit and report their findings. I think tho RZE (based on your other posts) that you need a $25k camera not a $6k camera!

RZE you might also find that at the C100 level there's only a small number of pros that are regular posters, most owners simply won't have the time, equipment and in depth knowledge to put it through its paces similar to what you are doing. So I really appreciate your posts and read them all.

But I still love my C100!

I have been spoiled by RED performance, but I'm putting my scarlet on consignment and need a day to day camera, I'll be selling my c100 probably on here, and buying a mark up BMC off of ebay. Thanks for your comments, I learned a lot.

 

[swanny]

Why were you saying the c100 is no good for feature films and heavy secondaries if all you're using the c100 for is a "day to day camera"?

 

[RZE]

My freelance work is as a dp/operator colorist combo, secondaries matter in day to day

 

[dustylense]

Hey RZE. You are entitled to opinion. But you make some real vague and hyperbolic statements. Let's see your attempts at failed C100 secondaries hence by example. While I will agree with you that there are better cameras for narrative hollywood budget features like the Alexa, F65/55 and a Red Epic I'm also going to say that those cameras cost that much for a reason. Who here that owns a C100, or has tested it really thinks they can go film Life of Pi on the C100? Let's get down to brass tax. You speak of a day to day camera. Guess what man, I had the BMC. That is NOT a day to day camera. Far from it in fact. Prepare for moire hell with the BMC. Prepare for the limited lensing of the BMC. Better keep your IR filters. While I like the BMC and had some great shots with it, at the same time the BMC completely destroyed quite a few of my shots. Wanna work with RAW on the BMC? You will rue the day you sold your Scarlet in exchange for uncompressed DNG RAW workflow.

 

[RZE]

I'm not going to waste time proving that a secondaries key on avchd is rubbish, the color space is not even the issue as much as the macro blocking from the compression, any colorist would tell you that it is a liability for narrative, feel free to try to prove that it isn't, just make sure theres variable and control. If you shot RED, the problems listed seem pretty day to day other than the moire. 77mm IRNDs cost 80 bucks, 2 tbs is 90 bucks for 3.5 inch drives good for 4 hours of raw, With 64 gigs of RAM, dual gpu nvidia quadro and a new nvidia tesla card with 2500 cuda cores I think I'll be fine with RAW. I didn't sell my scarlet, its on consignment, that means a rental house rents it and we split the profits, I still own it. Your right in that most people who buy the BMC won't be able to handle it, but I'm pretty ready, the main reason why I want it is Ryan E. Walters exposure tests with the BMC, putting the usable DR on par with Red Epic, that doesn't mean its as good but it does mean that it is a solid B cam, C100 is not a solid b cam, I tried mixing it with RED on my last short and it sticks out like a sore thumb. I'll take the moire, I'd rather be able to expose a key 2 stops under and retain detail in dark objects. Also if your not using the BMC in RAW the you should get a c100, john Brawleys words.

 

[squig]

Have you tried recording to a hyperdeck or a ninja? I've seen a big difference in AVCHD vs prores footage from a few different cameras.

 

[dustylense]

Shot on Mk2 RZE. Loaded with secondaries and effects. Even before the 24p update:

Shot on the AF100 with the lowly 420 color space:

Shot on an iPhone:

The Gh2:

All 420 cameras.