Out of Curiosity - FILM TIME LIMITS - Vote in the poll

[Barry_Green]

because it gave people a source on how to LEARN how to write a good story for a five minute film, I think more resources like this and entrants will be properly prepared to write and create a story that would fit into say ... 5 minutes ... without shooting way too much and having their story compromised because of it.

Exactly. That's the whole point -- embrace the art form for what it is, instead of trying to cram too big of an idea into whatever window of time you've been given.

Shorts ain't features, folks. I know you know that, but I'm saying -- embrace it. Short films are a whole different beast, or should be, and the runtime that's given has proven adequate to make some great little films before.

It may be that the only way to solve this is to have an "openfest" with no runtime limits. At least once. And then we'll see -- will people really enjoy watching six dozen 40-minute films? Will the fest be as fun as it is, with as much excitement as it has? I sincerely doubt it, but maybe that's something that we should try someday; something that should be put on the endless list of things people want to do with the fest.

Let me just say this, while we're at it: DVXFest keeps getting more and more successful. Let's recognize that. What we have is working great, it's a fun event and it has so far really improved the quality of films that lots of people are turning out; heck, it got Kholi to finally make a film! It's so far led to at least two people getting feature film deals. It's working. Just how much "fixing" do we need to do?

 

[Weston]

I think 5 is too short and 10 is too long.

6 to 7 minutes would be good.

 

[TwistedLincoln]

It may be that the only way to solve this is to have an "openfest" with no runtime limits. At least once

I love that idea. A fest with no rules regarding subject matter or length. Just a file size limit.

For regular fests, though, what about setting the base time limit at 5min, 50mb, but allow people to pay for the ability to have longer/bigger films? Say $5.00 gets you another minute and a 10mb larger file size. Don't limit how much people can spend -- so if I want to enter a 30 minute film, I can just pay $125 and do so.

Films that are in the 5min/50mb or less range would still enter for free, so most people would still enter shorter films, keeping things easy to manage. But the revenue from those who want longer films would help pay for the extra overhead-- not to mention help compensate those behind the scenes for all their work.

Also, should we decide to allow larger file sizes (either in the regular fests per my idea above, or just for an OpenFest), I'd be glad to volunteer my webserver to serve as a Bittorrent tracker -- that should keep downloads fast enough to be a non-issue for all those but dial-up users.

 

[Barry_Green]

I love that idea. A fest with no rules regarding subject matter or length. Just a file size limit.

No restrictions at all? That would be an unfettered disaster.

You want to know what would happen? I can guarantee we'd get hundreds, if not thousands of entries. People will dig up anything and everything they've got on their shelves and enter it. We'll see more unwatchable dreck (as well as some good stuff) and we'll be totally overwhelmed by the number of entries, and it will become an unmanageable disaster.

You can't have a fest where we give away prizes like the occaisonal HVX, and not expect to be swamped by entries if there were no restrictions. The whole reason there's a unique identifying element assigned to the films is to make sure (or as sure as we can, with as little "footprint" on the films as possible) that the films were made for this specific festival. It's about getting the membership up and making movies.

When I said an "open fest", I'm not talking about anything and everything that anyone's ever shot. I was saying that if we experimented with no time limit, we'd see what we get and whether it would work or not. But a no-rules fest at all? I can confidently predict that it would become an unwatchable mess. Unless we did like every other "open" fest out there, and set up a screening committe and charged an entry fee. The entry fees in fests exist for two reasons: to fund the fest, yes, but to also set a bar for entry so people will only enter their films if they're really sure that they'll do well. And a screening committee and entry fee is not something we're interested in doing -- there are a billion other festivals that already do that!

 

[Kholi]

Exactly. That's the whole point -- embrace the art form for what it is, instead of trying to cram too big of an idea into whatever window of time you've been given.

Shorts ain't features, folks. I know you know that, but I'm saying -- embrace it. Short films are a whole different beast, or should be, and the runtime that's given has proven adequate to make some great little films before.

It may be that the only way to solve this is to have an "openfest" with no runtime limits. At least once. And then we'll see -- will people really enjoy watching six dozen 40-minute films? Will the fest be as fun as it is, with as much excitement as it has? I sincerely doubt it, but maybe that's something that we should try someday; something that should be put on the endless list of things people want to do with the fest.

Let me just say this, while we're at it: DVXFest keeps getting more and more successful. Let's recognize that. What we have is working great, it's a fun event and it has so far really improved the quality of films that lots of people are turning out; heck, it got Kholi to finally make a film! It's so far led to at least two people getting feature film deals. It's working. Just how much "fixing" do we need to do?

!!! A rushed one no doubt, but m'first one. =P

6 to 7 minutes max. They've already given us open cam, open genre with this past fest. I mean, all Hallows entries could've been whatever you wanted them to be so long as they had some sort of "darkness" theme and a Wineglass somewhere. You didn't have to make it about the wineglass.


Let's just hope for a next fest at all, y'know? No entry fees, great prizes, the mods are taking time out of their lives to screen films, handle uploads, etc etc. Everyone's entitled to get their thoughts out there, but at some point it should be realized that we're getting all this fun for free.

If any leeway, back to six or even seven minutes.

 

[TwistedLincoln]

No restrictions at all? That would be an unfettered disaster.

You want to know what would happen? I can guarantee we'd get hundreds, if not thousands of entries. People will dig up anything and everything they've got on their shelves and enter it. We'll see more unwatchable dreck (as well as some good stuff) and we'll be totally overwhelmed by the number of entries, and it will become an unmanageable disaster.

Agreed completely. I meant no restrictions on subject matter. You'd still have to film your entry during the time specified by the fest. We'd still probably want to have a specified character name or object so that we know they aren't using stuff from their shelf.

 

[Simon Höfer]

Let's just hope for a next fest at all, y'know? No entry fees, great prizes, the mods are taking time out of their lives to screen films, handle uploads, etc etc. Everyone's entitled to get their thoughts out there, but at some point it should be realized that we're getting all this fun for free.

Exactly! DVXUSER fests rock how they are! Keep up the good work. 'nuff said

 

[Mike@AF]

There should definitely be the restriction of having a specific character name or object in the film. That will make sure everyone had the same amount of time to make their films and puts everyone on an even level. It makes the competition fair.

I like the open fest idea, but the themes are fun. I guess it would be interesting to see what an open fest would bring.

I wouldn't suggest no time limit, but that would be interesting as well. I'm mainly looking for a longer limit than what there is now, but to not have to worry about cutting something out of my film that I really want to be there would be a welcome comfort. I don't mind paying a nominal fee to avoid having to compromise the integrity of my film.

Paying money for extra time is an option for everyone and sounds like a good idea as it would help support the site. Anyone can enter a film for free so long as it's no more than 5 min or 6 min, yet the option lets the filmmakers here have the opportunity to do what they really want with their films. Now there's some good thinking Tony!

 

[Kholi]

There should definitely be the restriction of having a specific character name or object in the film. That will make sure everyone had the same amount of time to make their films and puts everyone on an even level. It makes the competition fair.

I like the open fest idea, but the themes are fun. I guess it would be interesting to see what an open fest would bring.

I wouldn't suggest no time limit, but that would be interesting as well. I'm mainly looking for a longer limit than what there is now, but to not have to worry about cutting something out of my film that I really want to be there would be a welcome comfort. I don't mind paying a nominal fee to avoid having to compromise the integrity of my film.

Paying money for extra time is an option for everyone and sounds like a good idea as it would help support the site. Anyone can enter a film for free so long as it's no more than 5 min or 6 min, yet the option lets the filmmakers here have the opportunity to do what they really want with their films. Now there's some good thinking Tony!

You're advocating a level playing field, yeah? So, say someone has a 10 minute short and doesn't have the money to pony up to upload, but you do? How's that leveling the field?

 

[Mike@AF]

We both have the option. You can't control who has money and who doesn't. It's no different than one person having the money for a Red camera and another only having the money for a DVX100 camera. Some people have access to established actors and some don't. Some have access to studio quality lights and other equipment. Those are things that can't be controlled. What can be controlled is the timeframe in which the films are mad.

Each filmmaker can make a great film. It's not just about the camera that's used or the time that's used. The 5 min film can be great or suck and the 10 min film can be great or suck. It's all about the talent what the filmmaker does with his/her resources. But if someone wants to make a 10 min film they should be allowed to.

 

[Kholi]

We both have the option. You can't control who has money and who doesn't. It's no different than one person having the money for a Red camera and another only having the money for a DVX100 camera. Some people have access to established actors and some don't. Some have access to studio quality lights and other equipment. Those are things that can't be controlled. What can be controlled is the timeframe in which the films are mad.

Each filmmaker can make a great film. It's not just about the camera that's used or the time that's used. The 5 min film can be great or suck and the 10 min film can be great or suck. It's all about the talent what the filmmaker does with his/her resources. But if someone wants to make a 10 min film they should be allowed to.

The logic isn't there, but the exhibition category is.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Ok. First of all, individual users paying money if they want to enter a longer film isn't going to solve any kind of problem. It's just going to look shady, and it will only serve a purpose to unbalance the playing field. If you are willing to pay, you can do this, or this, or this... if not, you can't..... Nope. It's a level playing field as possible from our end. We won't make unbalanced from our end. That will come from the individual film makers and their resources. But, if our rules limit one, they will limit all equally. and, as said already, the goal is not to limit at all. Limiting the fests to a shorter run time (whatever that may be) allows for maximum participation. That is a good trade off.

If you do it for one, you do it for all, or you have no time limit.

We like to keep the playing field as even as possible, and this fest is open to EVERYONE.

You are allowed to make a 10 minute film if you want to. No one is stopping you from doing that. You just won't be eligible for competition in the fest.

There has to be a limit. And introducing things like pay if you want longer than 5 minutes don't help solve potential problems. On the contrary all that would do is introduce unecessary complexity and create new problems.

 

[Mike@AF]

Putting it that way, it makes sense to not have a "pay for longer films" option.

How about the idea of an 8 page script limit and a 10 min film limit, or something like that. Allows for the possibility of a longer film, but forces writing for a short film to prevent the films from being cut down to 10 mins. You can still limit the length of the credits too.

 

[Jared Meyer]

Putting it that way, it makes sense to not have a "pay for longer films" option.

How about the idea of an 8 page script limit and a 10 min film limit, or something like that. Allows for the possibility of a longer film, but forces writing for a short film to prevent the films from being cut down to 10 mins. You can still limit the length of the credits too.

I don't think this would force anyone to write a shorter film - there's no realistic way to monitor the length of people's final shooting scripts.

Different wording, but same result. Virtually everyone would enter a film that ran 09:59;23. Just my opinion, based on the length of the entries in every other dvxfest.

I love that this fest is about the five minute short form.

Anything else is a different fest. And they are out there - it's just not this one.

 

[Mike@AF]

I don't think this would force anyone to write a shorter film - there's no realistic way to monitor the length of people's final shooting scripts.

Sure there is. Just have them turn in their final shooting script with their film.

 

[Kholi]

xD Your calf muscles must be strong from fighting this uphill battle.

 

[Jared Meyer]

Too complicated and just another thing the mods have to check before letting us watch the films. What's to prevent entrants from submitting an eight page version just to satisfy the rule when they know all along they'll be submitting a ten minute film...Will the mods have to compare each script to each film?

No point in adding the extra verbiage. If it was heading in that direction I'd say just call it a ten minute limit and be done with it. Too tricky to be juggling script uploads and limits on top of everything else.

But again, this is a five minute fest. Personally I hope it stays that way.

 

[Blaine]

The bottom line is not that the story can't be done within the time constraint. IT CAN. No matter WHAT the time constraint is, there will be complaints that more time was needed. That comes from trying to fit 10 lbs of (edit: well you know) in a 5 lb bag. Stories are written TOO long. If you've written a story and it clocks in at 6-8 pages, it's time for a rewrite. Put some effort into it. Give it some thought. You'll find a way to do something in a more economical way. I've had issues with some of JDS's stories in the past but one thing you can say for him, he puts the time in on the script. For most of the members on the board, the script gets the least attention, instead of the most attention as it should. If a filmmaker isn't up to writing his own script it's time to collaborate with another member on the board. Filmmaking is a collaborative effort. Find an expert in each area. Give the script more attention than you think it needs. Work it out, then have someone you trust for an honest opinion to read it for you. If it someone that will give you an honest opinion (not your spouse or parent) they will find the holes for you. This will let you know where your problems are and let you know what you need to work on to fix it. I think it might help to write it first as a short story. Is it engaging? Is it something you'd like to see? The go ahead and adapt it.

Now, is it too long? If so, how can you make it shorter and still get the meaning across? If you can't, either enter it as exhibition or find a different story.

 

[bosindy]

a lot of artists arguing for less choice. 5, 6, 7 , 8 , 9 minutes are all arbitrary constraints beyond server space. More time means more choices. It is not a radical departure for an extra minute or two if it doesn't cost anything. Maybe 6 is the max to host it for free than fine, if not trying 7 or 8 minutes doesn't seem like the end of the fest as we know it and it might help improve a film or two written properly for the short form.

 

[Mike@AF]

Not every story can be done within 5 mins. You can start with a 5 min story that is really good, then find that by adding some more elements to it it's much better. That's what's happened with the last short I made (originally intended for All Hallows Fest) and with the script for the 2nd film I was going to make for All Hallows. We had a script ready to go then felt we were cutting ourselves short with that script at only 5 mins. We found we could have a much better film by adding a little more to it. Could we have made two 5 min shorts? Sure. Would they have been good? We think so. So you may ask, why didn't we enter them? Because I want to enter the best film I can and not a shortened version of a really good film. If I'm going to do something I'm going to do it right.

Not every 10 mins film is full of crap. I really hope that's not what you really think because that's a very negative attitude. Not every story is written too long and not every film is made too long. Just because a script for what was supposed to be a 5 min short ended up at 6-8 pages doesn't mean it sucks and needs a rewrite. You haven't read it so you can't judge the content. You don't know how much attention the script has been given or not been given.

For instance, my latest short film I wrote 9 years ago and had been sitting on my hard drive since then. All Hallows came around and I immediately thought of that script. It was 4.5 pages long at that time. I've become a better writer over the last 9 years and needed to rewrite it to fit within All Hallows rules. I rewrote, rewrote it, and rewrote it. The script ended up being 8 pages long after coming up with some great new ideas and characters for the script. It was originally 1 character and became 3 characters. I sit back and compare the original 4.5 page script to the 8 page script and there's no way I would consider making the 4.5 page script. The 8 page script is very tight and concise. The film ended up being nearly 11 minutes long with credits.

Obviously it was too long and we still had time to make another film for All Hallows. We wrote a script and it ended up being 4.5 pages long. We were ready to shoot it, but then we thought "You know, we could do a little more with this" and came up with some great background scenes on one of the characters for during some opening credits and some more building, conflict, and vulnerability scenes for the main character in the middle of the film. Altho the 4.5 page script could stand on its own, the current 10.5 page script (the opening credit sequence is very detailed in the script, so without that it's 8 pages) is a far better story and will be a far better film overall. Some day we'll come back to it and actually make it.

So what's my point? My point is that had we gone ahead and made these as 5 min films they might still have been good, but they are all better with more work. Just like with these 2 scripts we have, I'm sure many of the 5 min films could be improved upon with some additional writing, a few additional supporting scenes, and spending more time on them. Remember, I am saying they all work as 5 min films. I'm just also saying they can all be improved upon with some more scenes. Do you want to make a mediocre 5 min film or a more complete, compelling, fulfilling, entertaining, and overall better 10 min film? And ask anyone if they'd rather watch a mediocre 5 min film or a good 10 min film?

Lastly, I know not every 10 min film will be good, just as not every 5 min film is good. So there's no reason to say that again.