Opinions on ProAim Matte Box and Support

Billygoat said:
I am not saying that the $1200 matte box might be what you have to buy in order to have a thumbscrew function as designed. What I am saying is that it is an absurd situation. A piece of equipment scarcely out of the industrial revolution in terms of technical complexity really should not be such a challenge to manufacture at a lower price point, while the $5000 camera it's bolted to would seem to have comparatively been manufactured by an advanced alien society.

I am aware that I may have to pay that money to get a properly functioning and designed flap of metal or set screw. Those willing to do so without question are perpetuating the absurdity of it. What I am saying is that the people who are selling those pieces of equipment should be wary of better competition as the demand for lower cost quality alternatives increases with sales of this latest generation of video camera which requires those accessories.
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Digital cameras follow Moore's Law; mechanical devices do not. That's why automobiles don't cost less than a thousand dollars but some computers do.

If producing a Matte Box is as simple as you think, perhaps you should consider becoming a manufacturer.

Best regards,

Leo
 
I'll give an example because I'm in the middle of doing this right now. I have a Petroff 4x4 mattebox. I bought this about 4 years ago. This box is more than $1200 with a few extras to fit my HVX. It's modular and built well. I was doing a shoot over in India on a mountain, and took a flip - my elbow hit the mattebox and slightly bent the top flag mechanism. Petroff have been making film gear for a very long time, which means servicing my mattebox is no big deal. I just looked online at the part number (it's amazing how many pieces a mattebox can have!) and viola! - it's back to being new again. Now, the part was $75 for something that probably cost $2 to make, but having that access to parts is reassuring to me. Petroff is a Canadian company so I know stuff is not going to missing in the mail from overseas. For me, it was an investment that was worthwhile.
 
Ticheli said:
Digital cameras follow Moore's Law; mechanical devices do not. That's why automobiles don't cost less than a thousand dollars but some computers do.

If producing a Matte Box is as simple as you think, perhaps you should consider becoming a manufacturer.

Best regards,

Leo
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As the AF100 and other cameras like it start coming on to the scene in greater numbers, that will happen, though it won't be me producing them. The companies who are currently producing decent quality products have no interest in lowering their margins on their support gear on their own and getting in to a price war with each other. It is not in their interest. Market pressure is the only thing with enough inertia to do that, as the demand for this type of gear continues to increase.
 
It's tempting to think of the Matte Box as a simple pie-plate screwed onto the front of a camera; not so. Sure, we can make a lens shade with a little black wrap and Gaffer tape, but that won't swing away, go quickly from lens to lens, or support and rotate filters.

Just to take this a bit further; let's consider the design of the Matte Box swing-away mechanism; it's got to work perfectly for thousands of cycles. It's got to fit tightly and never sag. Bear in mind that the ring will be well back on the lens, so you'll need to design something that first moves the whole thing forward before swinging away otherwise it's got to be built with a good deal of slop. It's also got to stay locked and bear the weight of glass filters. Not rocket science, but far from a pie plate.

Undoubtedly, the influx of thousands of cinema cameras will affect the market; there will be new competitors and lower priced products because of volume sales.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Quality

Quality

Realize also that the majors are quick to toss parts that don't meet demanding specs. Our Bollywood stuff works, but we're on constant alert for drift & droop. If you are really 'in' to your scene, you might not notice that your lens has drifted to the left or that the tip of your flag is the top of the shot. This is especially true in dark scenes, which we have a lot of right now. The people who charge several thousand bucks for a rig would be out of biz really quickly if this sort of thing happened with their gear, but if you only paid $800 for the entire combo, you live with it. I am happily dealing with issues that I would never tolerate with a 'real' shoot. We're experimenting, taking chances, having fun....
 
If you're okay with a matte box that costs $1,200 to put with a $100,000 camera, why should that manufacturer lower their price just so you can feel comfortable putting that same matte box with a $5,000 camera? That just doesn't make sense. If you don't want to spend $1,200 on a matte box, go buy the $400 IndiSystem matte box or some other cheap one that just isn't as good. Your wallet may feel better about it, but it just won't be as good of a matte box.

The production market is becoming bigger now that more higher quality cameras at lower prices exist and more people are shooting content so that means demand will be higher for things like matte boxes, follow focus systems, support systems, etc., so that means manufacturers will be able to manufacture more products and potentially lower prices and still be able to maintain revenue they need to stay afloat. Don't forget that film/video production was and may still be a bit of a niche market. It's not the video game industry and they aren't trying to sell video games or video game accessories to millions of people. But as the industry grows you may see more products, more competition, higher demand, bigger supply lines, and possibly lower prices.

And already you're seeing a little bit of that. More companies have cropped up offering lower priced alternative gear. Just look at companies like Cinevate and Redrock with their gear vs the same or similar gear to Arri. I wouldn't say a Durus or microFollowFocus is in line with Arri's follow focus, but they are less expensive alternatives. The Arri is still far superior, but you do have options. Same goes for the matte boxes. So, yes, prices have come down already so I don't see what the big deal is.
 
The big deal to me is that they are fleecing you, and me. Yes in some regards we may not have a choice, but if you really think they haven't recovered their R&D on a $2000 matte box 20 years ago, you're kidding yourself. Of course that's the American way, soaking profits until a less greedy or at least more nimble competitor overseas sees an easy target to pick off. It is less noticeable on an invoice that has a $100,000 camera. But being ripped off simply because I don't have a choice is not something I do happily, though you're free to continue to do so if it pleases you. The US domestic auto makers LOVED the SUV craze, because they're based on simple truck frames, stopped doing R&D 15 years ago, were very cheap to continue to roll off the lines, and could reap huge profits per unit. They did it for as long as they can get away with it, but to their own detriment.

I like Panasonic's approach to their AF100. Yes it's electronic, yes it's high volume from a very large company. But we all know they could have charged 20% more for that camera and probably gotten away with it. But they got aggressive, and a couple weeks later, guess what? The F3 went from listing at $16K to $13K. I like competition and look forward to more of it in camera support. In fact, that may be a good example of the Japanese approach to business, as opposed to the American approach.

I think it will change (already is starting to, more than I'd realized even yesterday when I started this thread) as more and more people start seeking out alternatives like gini rigs, which is by all accounts a very good alternative when it comes to support/shoulder rigs.
 
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Here's an example for you, comparing two different swing-away matte boxes. I recently ordered the IndiSystem IndiMatte matte box. I figured $400 for a swing away matte box is a good deal. If it works I'll be happy because I don't want to pay $1000 for a matte box. It arrived. It was defective, not standing straight up. Also when you swing it open it gets really tight and doesn't leave adequate room to safely remove the lens. It's also a pain to adjust the matte box forwards and backwards on the rods when you need to adjust it for different size lenses. Not ideal. I emailed IndiSystem twice, once through their website and once with an actual email, and never got a response. I had to call them. They were very short on the phone once I said I wanted to just return everything for a refund and all I got was an address via email after he hung up on me to return the product. No RMA # or anything. I'm waiting for my refund still.

So I instead ordered a Cinevate Titan 4x2. It's a little more than a Redrock, but I like that it locks on both sides whereas the Redrock locks on only one side (doesn't really lock). It also has rod mounts on the top and other nice features. I got quick email responses from Cinevate regarding all of my questions and they were very courteous and helpful. So, yes the Cinevate is more than double the price of the IndiSystem, but I'm getting a higher quality product AND better customer service and support (there is something to say for that as well). So I am now happy to pay nearly $1000 for a matte box knowing I'm getting a quality product that will have support if something ever goes wrong with it, and I know it will be usable on other cameras I end up with in the future.
 
I know Mike. What I'm saying is that the field is ripe for competition, so that the crap can fall away, and you might be able to get that Cinevate product and support fro something along the lines of $500 or $600. I think that's about where they should be. Volume and competition is going to make a difference.
 
I agree that there is definitely a gap in the market. Ive just bought myself a proaim shoulder rig and matte box. Not the greatest my any means, but I think it will get by. Now I need a follow focus however, theres no way I will be buying the Proaim. My matte box is cheap and wobbly, and the rails are heavy as hell. As with most proaim products, it WILL do the job but you just cant trust it not to break.

Ill be picking up the shoot 35 follow focus. I think those of you who say this gear isnt over priced are either insane of brainwashed! Sure, its great that companies are reliable with support, that is key. However, that dosnt justify a 500% markup.

Like many aspiring film makers, i have the choice between spending a fortune (money I simply do not have) or buying cheap dross from the bottom of the pile. Wheres the intermediate companies? I should be able to pay proaim prices and receive a much high quality product....and proaim should be about half the price they are now imo!

Id love zacuto, red rock, cinevate etc across the board, but its not going to happen. They all make a great product imo, but each and everyone is overpriced. Hey, if you are rich enough for this not to bother you then you're lucky, but spare a thoguht for the rest of us!
 
I actually just received my Gini Rigs shoulder rig, and it is VERY impressive. All anodized aluminum, very tightly machined, solid, really perfect for me. Not to mention the fact that it looks awesome. I just received my camera, so I may try to post a photo. I probably will stay away from the ProAim stuff, as I've heard so many say, yeah, it's ok, but it's not great. That can lead to aggravation I don't need.
 
Best thing is to just not buy it if it's too pricey.... The film business isn't like most others as how many will they sell in a year? It's not an industry of millions of units sold, and hence the specialized price and such....


One thing is for sure, you buy somethign that's a quality build then it'll last you for a long time. I bought a really expensive tripod, well expensive for me, over 10 years ago and I'm still using it. I paid 1500 bucks for it so it's now totally worked off it's cost, and I believe I'll get another 10 or 20 years before I need to replace that. It would be hard to say that had I bought a cheap 300 dollar jobby job.

It's all relative... To so many other people they'd think you were crazy for getting the AF100 over a GH2.... both of which we'll have, but either way... it's a relative thing.
 
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