Opinions on ProAim Matte Box and Support

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Billygoat

Active member
I've seen some photos of the ProAim Matte Box and support systems, and have heard some positive things about it. Anyone know of these systems, and how their DSLR package would work with Af100? I generally treat my gear well, and would prefer spending extra money on good glass than support systems which seem overpriced relative the engineering, materials, and complexity of the product. Especially when compared to the camera.
 
I try to keep an open mind when posting on vid forums, but I am compelled to tell you straight up:

I WILL NEVER AGAIN PURCHASE "PROAIM" GEAR

I have one of their follow focus units. It broke. By itself. It is now completely useless. I contacted them about this, and they asked me what part of the unit broke, promising to replace it. I told them. They did not. I promised them that I would make every effort to tell whomever wanted to hear an opinion of their gear, that their gear is rubbish. You can quote me. "Their gear is rubbish."

When I first dabbled in using film lenses with my Canon HV20, I purchased a rails mount system from them, too. It was so crude, and heavy, too, made of steel. Rubbish. I sold it with the HV20. Bye, rubbish!

I have since picked up a Cavision follow focus rig. It works amazingly well, and when you consider their low price, it is a steal.

You are forewarned.

Best of luck.
 
I've made the mistake of buying the cheap stuff myself and won't do it again. You get what you pay for, whether it be poor customer service, gear that will break, gear that is of poor build quality, or gear that just isn't as functional. My recommendation is to do it right the first time around and spend a little more money for quality. Things like support systems and matte boxes can be used with future cameras you'll have, so it will be worth it for that extra investment as well.
 
Thanks for the advice. Of course it's what I suspected. And thanks for the tip on the Cavision. I know a lot has been written by many different people about recommended Matte Boxes, hand held rigs, etc. Is there a somewhat definitive review or recourse for which manufacturers products to the best job at balancing cost, design, durability, and performance?
 
dustylense said:
the sgpro will be nice, just like the FF they make...
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Yeah, I saw some small pics. I might go for that instead of the RR if it gets some good reviews...plus I like the red accents! :D

RR used to have optional Red or Black knob options...now just black knob kits you have to buy...boo...
 
We actually have a rather large collection of support items from India -- we call it our "Bollywood Collection." We've been using it for a while now, and it is....okay. The design of everything is kludgy, the build is not particularly precise, and we've had to figure work-arounds on several occasions. It is all (to put it politely) inexpensive, and I can't exactly say I would recommend any of this stuff to anyone. That being said, we're not dissing any of it.
We have launched ourselves into a highly experimental and perhaps pointless experiment that has no revenue stream in sight. We are doing this at a time when paying customers in our studio are few and far between - we grossed more in one month of 2008 than we did all this year. The only way our little project has any chance of amounting to anything is for it to be a multi-camera shoot, so when we order something, we order several of them. Yes the Cinevate rigs are nice, but how can we possibly justify the expense of four of those things when we lost over $17K last year? What we are doing is crazy enough, spending our life's savings on support gear is suicidal.
My point here is that if you can avoid buying the cheap stuff, then do yourself a favor and spend more. But if your story simply will not happen any other way, do us a favor and do not let your story die. If your film is a turkey (which ours may be) you will have at least learned enough to make a better one next time. We do have some ProAim stuff here, and yes -- their command of the English language is wanting, we're not even thinking of calling for any kind of support, and we have a friend with a machine shop standing by. We haven't needed him yet, but I am can see where it might happen.
As for the ProAim shoulder-mount combo specifically; I'll never understand why the shaft of the ff gear is so long, and it irritates the heck of me that I can't snug up the flag without a hex wrench in one hand. I wish the matt box had a Y axis adjustment, as cam-plate shims are a pain at times. I also wish they had a better means of popping it on stix -- yes, this is a shoulder mount rig, but that should not preclude easy tripod mounting. I am also appreciative that - even with our meager budget - I am able to field a spread of equipment that with all its wambly foibles, is letting my company try something totally new. Wish us luck; we will need it.....
 
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Very good point Stephen. We all have to start somewhere, and the best time to buy something is when you need it - and the one buy, is the one you can afford. It's true that many folks get in the trap of getting all the latest and best gear, when the better weapon is simply knowledge and experience. As you get more gigs over time, gear can be upgraded.
 
I must say, the process of selecting and buying this support equipment is pretty frustrating. I have the money to buy the expensive stuff if I choose, but one of the reasons I have that money is that I don't spend ignorantly. As a not direct comparison, but what this "feels" like, one of my big issues in consumer electronics is the $100 Monster HDMI cable. These products are nothing short of fraud and extortion perpetrated on unwitting purchasers of HD gear at big box stores we all know. I'm not saying that Zacutto and RR Micro gear is extortionate, but relative the complexity, precision, and performance of the camera gear and lenses that they support, their products are drastically overpriced. Is it low volume, a willingness to produce 10 widgets at 40% profit instead of 20 widgets at 20%? Their gear, relative the $20,000-$40,000 and up camera equipment is priced in a seemingly proportionate manner. But now things are changing. Cameras costing $5,000 are rivaling or in some ways even exceeding the performance of those cameras. Yet the pricing structure of the support gear remains, and a series of large, relatively easy to machine materials amounts to often 60-70% or more the cost of a very sophisticated camera. I think the market is going to find this untenable. I sure find it unacceptable. Why? Panasonic is going to sell thousands of the AF100 units, and a significant percentage will be purchasing at least matte boxes if only to shade 35mm prime lenses. Many will need support gear for decent hand held work too. Someone is going to figure out that a more efficient, lower profit, higher volume production of matte boxes, follow focus, support gear, will win a large market share, and bring stronger economic pressures too all of the camera support market. The longer the domestic manufacturers sit on their hands, holding its collective breath that nobody will threaten their margins with decent quality support, the more at risk they are for loosing their edge.

In the meantime, is there a source for a comprehensive review of a full range of this gear, from a variety of manufacturers?
 
LoganMackay said:
Billygoat, look at the gini.1989 rigs on ebay and the shoot35 follow focus. They are both very fair in price and good quality. Gini will often take pretty low "best offers" for kits, so try that out too.

www.shoot35.com

http://shop.ebay.com/gini.1989/m.html
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Thank you! Too bad the currency conversion would really hammer me on the shoot35 stuff. Looks nice. As does the gini.1989 stuff. Maybe some of those market pressures I spoke of have really started. RR and Zacutto still are the ones spending $$ for the marketing presence, but I'm sure more and more quality competitors will be lurking out there as more people will be investing in this gear.
 
Why do top-tier camera accessories cost so much? Just handle them and you'll know.

First, they must be properly designed to work quickly, efficiently, and reliably, and they must be engineered and constructed to withstand the rigors of the production environment for many years. Baseplates, Follow-Focus Units, and Matte Boxes should easily outlive any HD camera.

Personally, I think no one beats Arri; if you invest in their gear you can use it for years and then very possibly sell it for more than you paid for it in the first place. Other than a C-Stand, what else appreciates like that?
I'm fairly new to Zacuto, but I absolutely love their plates and gadgets, especially their arms; the build quality is first-rate. I've got some Element Technica stuff that can't be beat, but I don't think they have too much that works with the AF100.

If I were starting from scratch, I would not overlook Chrosziel and check out the new products from O'Connor. I don't claim to have tested others, but they are priced far lower for good reasons; they may very well do the job, but I seriously doubt they will enjoy the longevity of the standards of the industry.

If you buy the very best support gear, you will never spend a day regretting it.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Ticheli said:
Why do top-tier camera accessories cost so much? Just handle them and you'll know. Leo
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I've handled a $100,000 CineAlta and awesome lens, and having a $1800 matte box on the front of it makes sense in that scale of economics. Having a $1200 Mattebox, which has maybe $100 or so or raw material, very little R&D, and simple machining and stamping virtually unchanged for decades out in front of a $6K or 7$ camera is a gravy train that's probably going to end. Now if I'm working in a budget of gear costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, then 2 grand for a matte box just sort of blends in. That's the equivalent of the $1200 alternator on my Piper Cherokee that's exactly the same part as the $200 alternator from the Chrysler parts counter, minus an FAA certification stamp. The law says I need that placard, so it goes in. But hanging $1200 matte box on a $5000 camera makes as much sense to me as putting a $20,000 matte box on the CineAlta. The materials, machining, and R&D do not come close to justifying the cost.
 
Billygoat said:
I've handled a $100,000 CineAlta and awesome lens, and having a $1800 matte box on the front of it makes sense in that scale of economics. Having a $1200 Mattebox, which has maybe $100 or so or raw material, very little R&D, and simple machining and stamping virtually unchanged for decades out in front of a $6K or 7$ camera is a gravy train that's probably going to end. Now if I'm working in a budget of gear costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, then 2 grand for a matte box just sort of blends in. That's the equivalent of the $1200 alternator on my Piper Cherokee that's exactly the same part as the $200 alternator from the Chrysler parts counter, minus an FAA certification stamp. The law says I need that placard, so it goes in. But hanging $1200 matte box on a $5000 camera makes as much sense to me as putting a $20,000 matte box on the CineAlta. The materials, machining, and R&D do not come close to justifying the cost.
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By all means purchase what makes sense to you; however your metric that a lower-priced camera should not have first-rate accessories is not valid. This is not about appearances; it's not about vanity. This is about using gear that works perfectly each and every time. It's about Matte Boxes that swing-away and don't get stuck; it's about Follow-Focus rigs that are smooth and precise with zero backlash and never, never slip. These attributes don't make a difference in the quality of an individual shot, but they do make a big difference in the production flow. On the set, time is the most valuable commodity you have; don't waste it fiddling with inferior gear.

My rule for selecting gear is this: buy the very best or the very cheapest and then replace it when you can.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
I am not saying that the $1200 matte box might be what you have to buy in order to have a thumbscrew function as designed. What I am saying is that it is an absurd situation. A piece of equipment scarcely out of the industrial revolution in terms of technical complexity really should not be such a challenge to manufacture at a lower price point, while the $5000 camera it's bolted to would seem to have comparatively been manufactured by an advanced alien society.

I am aware that I may have to pay that money to get a properly functioning and designed flap of metal or set screw. Those willing to do so without question are perpetuating the absurdity of it. What I am saying is that the people who are selling those pieces of equipment should be wary of better competition as the demand for lower cost quality alternatives increases with sales of this latest generation of video camera which requires those accessories.
 
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