FS7: Opinion after first shoot

I don't mean any offense, but I don't care for the images you have posted at all. I have come to expect better images than that from my 7-year old EX1. The boat in the bottom frame in particular is just awful. Normally I wouldn't criticize someone else's footage, but since you are holding those up as an example of how great S-LOG3 is, I feel it is okay to say something. I think what it boils down to is that I am expecting more from the camera than you are. I am already getting results with S-LOG3 that look better than what you think looks great -- but I'm not even close to being happy with the look. It's nice you are happy with your images, but I expect better.

And BTW, I certainly don't need to be educated on how to expose for S-LOG. I wrote the book on the F5/55. I guarantee you that I am doing it the way Sony recommends.

I want my FS7 to look as good as my F55 does outdoors, like this: https://vimeo.com/110962175
And that requires S-LOG2.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I don't mean any offense, but I don't care for the images you have posted at all.
Click to expand...

I think it's more than offense if you constantly ignore the images other people produce and are happy with
inside a forum.

If you're happy with your EX1 HG images - nice.
If you're happy with your F55 SLog2 images - nice.

IF you're not happy with SLog3 - then why use it?
I don't understand the point you're making here.

Same sensor behaves the same - be it SLog2 or SLog3. It's just a gamma.
There's a difference in the color space: Now there'S SGamut3 and SGsmut3.cine.
The latter of them being smaller and made for different purposes.

For decades various DPs use different cameras/stocks and lights and all for what they are
and for what they need it.

There's no: This is the best!

.
You write books and are well educated and you don't manage to get better results from your FS7
than with your EX1? I just don't know what to say...
 
I never said that I couldn't get better images with my FS7 than with my EX1. I said YOUR images are not up to the standards of my old EX1. See the difference?
I have no idea if YOU could create better images with your FS7 or not, I am only judging what YOU have posted and thrown out there as a shining example of S-LOG3. I don't like it, and why shouldn't I say so?

You seem to think there is no difference between S-LOG2 and S-LOG3, but there certainly is!!!! Otherwise, why would we have them both on the F5/55? And why is Sony going to add S-LOG2 to the FS7?
S-LOG3 is fine for certain shooting situations, but outdoors in bright sun isn't one of them. That's where S-LOG2 will come into play and add performance to the camera that even you will appreciate. If you like the images you posted now, wait to you get to do a reshoot with S-LOG2. You'll love it.

Why does a carpenter have a hammer and a saw? Because they are different tools for different purposes, and one is not a substitute for the other.

Have you ever shot RAW with a Sony camcorder and then decoded it in post two different ways -- one version as S-LOG3 and one version as S-LOG2? This is the purest way of comparing the two. But I'm sure you have not because otherwise you'd know there is a big difference between them.

Have you ever even used S-LOG2? Have you ever compared S-LOG2 to S-LOG3 head to head? If not, then you really don't have any basis to have an opinion, do you?
 
Ed,

Yes, I saw Charlie Chicken. And like you say, it is art, so it doesn't matter what I think. But since you asked, I do agree that it is art and very creative. I could not do a video like that if you paid me to. And at a certain level I admire people like you that can do it.. But with that said, it would never pass muster in the broadcast world that I work in, or high-end corporate video, or high-end documentary. The blacks are too crushed, there's too much out of focus, and there's too many blown out highlights. The clients I work for would never hire me if that's how I shot. Number one thing to me, this is a business. I happen to love doing what I do and go out and shoot just for the fun of it every single week, but my overriding purpose is to earn money to keep the lights on and have a great retirement someday. You probably feel at home in a place like Greenwich Village, while I feel at home on Madison avenue or the halls of 30 Rock.

We are coming at it from two different directions. I hope that makes sense? I wish you all the best with Charlie Chicken, but like a lot of art, ultimately it's not something I would hang on my wall. :-)
 
Last edited:
Doug Jensen said:
but since you are holding those up as an example of how great S-LOG3 is, I feel it is okay to say something.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused here Doug, he shot in HG4 not slog3, so he never claimed anything about slog2 or slog3?

Did you actually read his post?

C'mon guys no need for rants like this..
 
Yes It did compare SLog2 and SLog3 and Sony RAW and other linear RAW footage.

And I like SLog3 especially with the new color space more than SLog2 with SGamut.

If these quick grade first examples don't please you - no problem with that.

I just don't like generalizing or ruling tastes. Some people like the Canon look, some
people don't. Is anyone right or wrong here? Or is ones taste better than the other?
I think no. And that's why I don't think SLog2 is better than SLog3.

They are just different. I wrote already above what I find is different and don't say
this must be true for everybody. It's my conclusion.
I just don't need much exposure values in the highlight when I can expose properly.
But I like the less crushed shadows and therefore more values for further grading.

You seem to like SLog2 better. But you say it's because I don't know better.
I say it's because I have a different taste.

For me the look of an image is a way of your personal art and not true/false
or good/bad. This is the point where we won't agree...
And if you compare controlled shots with tons of time and a quick doco test, you
seem to compare apples to oranges.

BTW: I still like the EX1/3 too!
 
I'm happy that Sony have said Slog 2 is coming soon to the FS7.

The camera already is very versatile adding Slog 2 will offer yet another gamma choice.

There is just so much to to take in and to learn with the F series of cameras. Once mastered the images out of the FS7 are totally unbeatable for the price.

We're working with a subjective medium here there is no wrong or right. We have to choose the right gamma setting for each job. Some like myself will be okay using custom mode and the Hypergammas for lit and controlled situations. Others will settle with nothing less than Cine EI and some variant of Slog. Just use whatever pleases you eye and get the job done :)

Surinder.
 
starcentral said:
I'm a bit confused here Doug, he shot in HG4 not slog3, so he never claimed anything about slog2 or slog3?

Did you actually read his post? C'mon guys no need for rants like this..
Click to expand...

Dennis, yes you are confused. Did YOU read his post? The frames he told me to look at on the other thread were shot with Cine EI not HG.

Quote from the other thread: "Here's what cineEI + LC709A LUT in post brings out easily. I put a slight Fuji look via filmconvert on top. But this kind of workflow is so fast! All clips get the Sony LC709A LUT . . ."


Other than that, I'm happy to let Erik have the last word because I feel like I already said my piece and I stand by every word of it. I'm sure we can all agree that it will be good to have the choice, right? I need a saw to get the job done, and right now, Sony is only giving me a hammer. I need that saw.
 
eddavid said:
Ouch doug thats not nice to say. Did you watch charlie chicken?
Click to expand...

Ed, you've done some pretty remarkable stuff that you've posted over the past couple of years. Much of your F35 material has been inspiring and now I see some of your commercial work on Vimeo. Bravo! Keep up the good work.
 
I did a quick test shoot at 4K 60p with my nephews today in the snow... Figured their saturated winter clothes + skin + bright white snow would be an OK test. I did have to do a little white balancing/tweaking pre-LUT to warm up the shot a bit. I have a color meter that I've been using on the FS700 but not being able to dial in a specific kelvin value on the FS7 is a bummer. Would be nice to properly white balance but I guess that's part of Sony's "film-like" process. Oh well.

Let me know what you think of the looks I got out of this, I also threw on some random LUTs from the Koji LUT pack. I'm pretty new to using LUTs and I'm new to Slog3, I monitored with the FS7 LCD (and since I was in 60p mode I didn't have an MLUT... I guess I didn't check on the built-in waveform, does that work in 60p?)

https://vimeo.com/113129536
password: test

Sidenote: With all the weird gotchas for using MLUTs and waveform on the FS7, I'm mighty tempted by the Gratical HD or LT... Good third-party option that will give LUTs and waveform, regardless of frame rate.
 
Can you really not dial in specific kelvin on the FS-7? Thats mind blowing. That would be like opening a box or crayons in school...and finding out Crayola forgot (or was no longer able to) to put red in the box. Thats a pretty...well...basic function to not include.

I expect they will put it on the new FS-7 Mark II due out in 3 weeks. (....kidding...I couldn't resist).
 
Last edited:
ReelWorksMedia said:
Can you really not dial in specific kelvin on the FS-7? Thats mind blowing. That would be like opening a box or crayons in school...and finding out Crayola forgot (or was no longer able to) to put red in the box. Thats a pretty...well...basic function to not include.

I expect they will put it on the new FS-7 Mark II due out in 3 weeks. (....kidding...I couldn't resist).
Click to expand...

You can't dial in white balance in CineEI mode. In "custom" mode, you can use the Paint function to adjust color and white balance.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I don't mean any offense, but I don't care for the images you have posted at all. I have come to expect better images than that from my 7-year old EX1. The boat in the bottom frame in particular is just awful. Normally I wouldn't criticize someone else's footage, but since you are holding those up as an example of how great S-LOG3 is, I feel it is okay to say something. I think what it boils down to is that I am expecting more from the camera than you are. I am already getting results with S-LOG3 that look better than what you think looks great -- but I'm not even close to being happy with the look. It's nice you are happy with your images, but I expect better.

And BTW, I certainly don't need to be educated on how to expose for S-LOG. I wrote the book on the F5/55. I guarantee you that I am doing it the way Sony recommends.

I want my FS7 to look as good as my F55 does outdoors, like this: https://vimeo.com/110962175
And that requires S-LOG2.
Click to expand...

Seriously, Doug, is that anyway to address someone? There's a difference between constructive criticism and being malicious.
 
If Doug didn't follow up his post with footage, maybe so, but I think it's hardly malicious.
I sense frustration, and understandably so.
I was expecting better looking images than what was posted to highlight s-log3 too.
I am anxiously awaiting my FS7 and are thankful for all images posted though and all the information that goes with it.
Went from EX cameras to RED Epic, and getting a FS7 as an "easy to grab and ready to shoot" camera. I've been using my c300 on a children TV series this fall and I'm quite happy with the look, but can't stand the ergonomics of that camera.
The FS7 can't come quick enough as I have to get familiar with it before it's first big job in January

Edit: I have shot quite a bit with F55 as well, but I'm not expecting quite the same quality with FS7. When that is called for I bring out the Dragon, different jobs calls for different tools
 
Last edited:
C'mon guys, seriously.

What are you waiting for? We already know, what that sensor and SLog2/Slog3 is
capable of. We have seen enough nice footage from the F5.

My screengrabs are quick turnarounds. I have tested SLog3 in the worst situation
one can think off. Extremem backlight, directly against the sun, face in the shadow,
white cap, handrail structure also backlit, direct reflections of the sin in water, dark ship
crossing. No sticks, only the viewfinder without the loupe...
And I wrote that this is the worst case. But after two clicks in Resolve and a quick custom
curve for the contrast the footage is usable. What's wrong on this?

Is the FS7 capable of doing different footage in other circumstances? Of course it is.
But please be careful judging what other people are capable of...

THX
 
jshbckr said:
I did a quick test shoot at 4K 60p with my nephews today in the snow... Figured their saturated winter clothes + skin + bright white snow would be an OK test. I did have to do a little white balancing/tweaking pre-LUT to warm up the shot a bit. I have a color meter that I've been using on the FS700 but not being able to dial in a specific kelvin value on the FS7 is a bummer. Would be nice to properly white balance but I guess that's part of Sony's "film-like" process. Oh well.

Let me know what you think of the looks I got out of this, I also threw on some random LUTs from the Koji LUT pack. I'm pretty new to using LUTs and I'm new to Slog3, I monitored with the FS7 LCD (and since I was in 60p mode I didn't have an MLUT... I guess I didn't check on the built-in waveform, does that work in 60p?)

https://vimeo.com/113129536
password: test

Sidenote: With all the weird gotchas for using MLUTs and waveform on the FS7, I'm mighty tempted by the Gratical HD or LT... Good third-party option that will give LUTs and waveform, regardless of frame rate.
Click to expand...

Nice test footage thanks for posting.

I personally liked the look when the LC709 Type A LUT was applied.

Also looking at the Gratical my logic is invest in a good viewfinder once now and get many year of use out of it even when newer cameras arrive in the future. The resolution of the Gratical is as good as it's going to get for a viewfinder.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top