open letter to CANON: A new strategy

It's expensive to staff a "professional service center" in the middle of hollywood. If it's a vanity project, it's a lot of idle people and money down the drain for Canon.

yoclay said:
Rick,
I have been a fan of your posts for a long time. You always make good sense and I always feel a lot of experience behind your comments.

But, I think what you might want to consider is that Canon never intended to make money on this camera.

I think it's a vanity project.

Canon goes to Hollywood.
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Yeah, there are a TON of comparison points. I picked a few (8-bit, 60p at 1080) but decided not to include every single complaint. Mainly I just wanted to compare on price, not so much on what we want, don't want. For instance, I'd like 10-bit, but I'd live with 8-bit given I use that on my FS100. And also, this is not just about me :)

More than anything, I want to see how many people sign. 10, 100, 1000? That's the proof. If only 50 people sign this, well, it makes me wonder just how many people are interested even at $10k. I know people want it at $5k, and I do as well, but I don't see that as reasonable for the sensor tech myself.

Petition created. I am about to make it live in a few (as I have a VJ gig I need to get to shortly). I'll wait a few minutes to get any more feedback and then go live.

If someone wants to create an image for it I can upload, or video, but don't use pictures of the C300 without proof of permission.
 
combatentropy said:
Thanks for putting that together, Rick, but even $10,000 is twice as much as what I think it's worth in today's market.
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I spent a good amount of time looking at the demo movies. I do think the IQ is pretty good. I also looked at the other cameras available and listened to what a lot of other people believe. I'd love for it to be $5k as well, but I don't think that is realistic either. I think $10k as a list seems more in line for the performance I am reading/seeing.

But, in truth, it's an opinion on my part as well. I might be a CMOS designer (not visual, I design CPUs), but that doesn't give me special insight to such highly analog emerging technologies.

I'm making a professional guess based on the market and products that exist with similar tech as best I can.
 
Rick Burnett said:
We feel a target price of $10k is more inline with the features and performance that we've seen so far. I'd put a deposit down now if that's the price point Canon could hit. Please don't abandon your existing VDSLR user base.
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Honestly, I'd go down to $6k. It's not they're going to change it. Like some said, it's probably a vanity project... so why not go for $6k? That's what the real value is. Also, it NEEDS 60fps. Even at $5000 I wouldn't buy this camera because I won't be able to use it on commercials and music videos...
 
Rick, while i like the first draft, I have 2 concerns:

First; Do we have technical knowledge & information to judge what constituted as 'cost' of the camera. Does it even really matter what we 'believe' is the cost? Whereas we as the consumer have a pretty accurate guess when it comes to guessing 'sell price' of an item simply by looking at the similar goods in the market. We have a right to do that because market rules dictate at the end of the day regardless of our subjective view, and this approach doesn't need to proven by complex cost calculations.

Second, do we need to approach from a 'VDSLR base'? (Last paragraph of your statement) Clearly camera is beyond those VDSLR user needs, and Canon has a plenty of cameras available for that segment.

I think you should focus more on the comparison & specs to other similar systems.
Thanks for doing it btw.
 
yoclay said:
They are at least another year away from serving the very crowd that made them start thinking about Hollywood to begin with..
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that's the hugest issue i have. the no budget dudes with the real stories and imagination were the ones that made this happen, and they (we) are the ones that are getting bitten. How long do we have to wait on this dslr to materialize when its not that hard make. jeez. I have no prob with the new high budget cams....i dont care. Its all good for digital filmakers and more variety...but the very camera and people that brought about this revolution seems will be an afterthought.
 
VGurcu said:
Rick, while i like the first draft, I have 2 concerns:

First; Do we have technical knowledge & information to judge what constituted as 'cost' of the camera. Does it even really matter what we 'believe' is the cost? Whereas we as the consumer have a pretty accurate guess when it comes to guessing 'sell price' of an item simply by looking at the similar goods in the market. We have a right to do that because market rules dictate at the end of the day regardless of our subjective view, and this approach doesn't need to proven by complex cost calculations.

Second, do we need to approach from a 'VDSLR base'? (Last paragraph of your statement) Clearly camera is beyond those VDSLR user needs, and Canon has a plenty of cameras available for that segment.

I think you should focus more on the comparison & specs to other similar systems.
Thanks for doing it btw.
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The biggest problem is, without Canon telling us, we cannot know. The cost of their sensor alone has so many variables, it could be as simple as say a yield of working sensors of .1%. that means 1 in 1000 sensors they make are usable in the camera. This may come as a shock to some, but this sort of thing happens all the time. Many times you end up paying for the parts that don't work as well if they have very high tolerances that have to be met, and the technology has too much variance in it.

The basis on cost has come from a variety of comments from people both here, Red User, and through lots of google searches. I wanted to get a good cross section of what people's perceived value was on the camera. Some people think $14k is a good price, some people believe $5k should be the price. Cameras like the F3 and it's features pull the price upwards. Cameras like the AF/FS pull the price downwards.

Heck, It's possible that Canon spent too much making the sensor that they cannot go lower. R&D is such a guarded secret. I know, I work in chip design for products.

Given we can't know what they really cost to make in terms of R&D, materials, and labor, we're left with guessing.

The second part of what I wrote, bringing in VDSLR users, is because MUCH of the comments I have read about disappointment were from people who have been using VDSLR technology and are willing to step up to the next camera, but now feel left out. When I look at the C300, I see a DSLR design. It's just deeper at the back and lacks an LCD built into the back side. Unlike Sony and Panasonic which made a camera that looks like a video camera more.

It feels like Canon just stepped right over all the people who've helped to make them synonymous now with shooting video on the attainable side and walked right into hollywood. If anything, it sends the message that "Hey, we exist down here? Do you still want us as a customer?"

The hardest part of a petition like this is that there is unknowns, and, its trying to speak generally for more than one person. I think I can continue to update the petition till it hits 10,000. If a general consensus on parts of the letter need to be updated, I can do that.
 
If you REALLY want to help Canon and give them a REAL SHOT at winning this round. (And I sincerely think it is possible)

Here's how:

This is not a joke. It won't cost them anything and it is the ONLY thing that will keep me from writing a check to Jim Jannard before December 31.


Canon needs to make an announcement. Here's the simple version.


"Canon is pleased to complete it's historic announcement. After demonstrating it's robust new video capability in the C300, Canon is pleased to announce that it will deploy the same video functionality in this year's cycle of DSLR deployment. Starting with the (T4i, 8d, 5dMIII, etc).


Users can expect the same dynamic range, an improved 4:2:2 codec, and full HDMI output."


I think HORDES of people would "hold off" making the upward jump if they knew there was a reason to stay, that included a NICE upgrade (NOT INCREMENTAL), at around the same price point that made the category so popular.


So we need to encourage Canon by telling them to make this announcement!!!!

Let them do what they will with the C300.....if they push this tech into their STANDARD LINE....WOWSER!!!!!! That WOULD be an announcement!!!!!
 
Well i dont know about the pricing of the C300 but if they dont come out with a decent HDSLR for 3k or under then they lost alot of people. I'm def not shelling out more than 3k on an HDSLR...if i'm going over that then i',m getting an fs100 (or the like) plain and simple. the whole beauty of the HDSLR was the price to image quality ratio allowing SO many people to tell their stories in an awesomely cinematic way. (of course we had horrible stories along with those :) )
 
I think part of the problem is that when Canon first introduced their HDV products back in 2005 they tried to sell us on the interlaced 1080i format which basically resulted in a defective product. I think the problem was that interlace scanning was such a legacy that it was hard to die off. And in 2011 the legacy 1080p format may be a diehard to fully embracing 4K.
 
Rick you need to make a new thread for the petition. Its too hard to find in on page 3. This is the ideal page for ideas/brainstorming, but you need to make a post with the link at the very beginning. My $.02.
 
I have to head out the door RIGHT now :) If someone wants to do that, I am fine with that, or, tomorrow I can do that. Or, the OP can edit his first post and put it in there. :) I'm easy!
 
Given we can't know what they really cost to make in terms of R&D, materials, and labor, we're left with guessing.
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Precisely. Question is, what benefit you ll get by your guess -no matter how educated it is-?
If your guess is way off, you will be loosing credibility in the exec's mind, and will create resistance for the rest of the petition.

It feels like Canon just stepped right over all the people who've helped to make them synonymous now with shooting video on the attainable side and walked right into hollywood.
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Why does a logical person let the sentiment take the best of him?
People didnt/doesnt help Canon. If anything Canon helped millions by providing tools that they hadnt access at that price point before.
Canon doesnt step over anybody, VDSLR segment going strong more than ever.
There is no 'walking into Hollywood' either, not with these specs and in the presence of Epic & Alexa...

Then again, lets see if a consensus arise for a change in the petition...
 
the worst part of this is that Canon is sucking up to the very people that scoffed and dissed the 5d and 7d. When the no budget guys kept on churning out beautiful images till this thing was made main stream. So much for that...guess we'll wait to see this elusive mystery dsrl to come.
 
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