open letter to CANON: A new strategy

VGurcu

VGurcu

Well-known member
Judging by the faltering enthusiasm across the web for the newly announced EOS C300, it would be proper to think that a bumpy road awaits Canon in the next couple of months.
While the initial response was great in terms of design of the camera & provided image quality, it soon turned into dissappointment right after the announcement of specifications & pricing info.

2 biggest complaints are;
-Unrealistic suggested MSRP amount($20.000)
-Lack of ability to record RGB 4:4:4 to an external source, or some form of RAW format.{Although internal 1080p30 max, 4:2:2 MPEG2 MXF is a solid codec.} {Let's not even get into stereo 3D...}

Price is unrealistic because of the Sony F3; which will most probably respond with further discount on S-Log purchase.(may not since EOS C300 far from being competitive pricewise)
Currently EOS C300 doesnt threaten neither FS100/AF100 nor F3 price bracket, although it is obvious that positioned itself to compete against F3.
RED Scarlet already distanced itself from the competition with better specs/price...

That leaves CANON with 2 options if she wants to start her Digital Cinema adventure with more confidence & success in terms of sales:

SCENARIO A:
No change in camera specs. Solution; slash the MSRP to $10.000 (street price around $9000)
Possible results:
-Access gained to FS/AF100 market for those who want a better S35 camera, but cant afford the Scarlet or the F3.
-Absolute victory over F3 for those who do not need 4:4:4, and just want a great 4:2:2 imagery.Cheaper than Sony by at least 30 percent.
-Steal potential Scarlet customers, especially now that a working scarlet almost close to a full price F3 set.

SCENARIO B:
Modify the EOS C300 to allow external 4K, RGB 4:4:4 recording. Bring MSRP to 25 percent less, appr. $16.000 (street price 14-15k)
Possible results:
-FS/AF100 market unchallenged.
-Head to head competition with F3 & RED Scarlet.

In either scenarios CANON will benefit by selling much more C300 bodies and anchor herself a bit stronger on the Digital Cinema Cameras front. Revenues lost due to lowered prices can be retrieved by the increased lens sales...

HERE IS THE PETITION TO SIGN-UP (THANKS TO RICK BURNETT)
http://www.change.org/petitions/eos...etail-price-of-the-the-cinema-eos-c300-camera
 
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I agree with most of this... but even without a complete up-date (60fps, or at least over-cranking, and 10bit) I don't even know if would buy the C300 at $5000. I need 60fps for my work... music videos and commercials. A camera without at least 60fps in full-res is useless. I can get by for now with the 60fps 720p on my GH2 and 7D, since most of my content ends up on the web right now, but there is just no way I'm going to invest in a NEW camera that doesn't offer 1080p over-cranking.

But, I'm totally down for an open petition and letter. We should get all the DSLR users (that this is "supposidly" aimed at) to let them know that we just wont be buying one. Not a threatening letter or anything... just a notice, that if this camera really is aimed at leaving "no story untold", then it has failed. We should also inform them that in no way competes with cameras for high-budget productions either. They needed to price a camera like this at around $6000 to persuade current 5D/7D owner to ditch their gear for a better model that is only SLIGHTLY in a higher price bracket. Most 5D owners could probably swing a $5000 camera with a few jobs and saving... but $20k is just insane. It's not even a fathomable upgrade for 80% of DSLRs users. And Hollywood studios aren't going to use this camera because budget doesn't matter at this point and Alexa and Epic are higher quality and more flexible. Even as a b-cam, the 5D still makes more sense... why get one $20k crash cam, when you can get 10 for the same price?

The C300 just simply doesn't have a market. Too expensive for indies... and too under-featured for Hollywood and professionals. Does canon realize this?
 
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I'm with you that the C300 is overpriced - I haven't read anyone disagreeing on that point, which has been mentioned by many on the web. At the same time, I think there are a few more points that could be mentioned to flesh out the picture. A few of these points I'm reprinting from more informed people than myself, and my apologies for not having kept track of who said what in the many articles I've read in the last 24 hours. First, multiple sources have estimated that $20,000 MSRP is likely to translate to around $16,000 street, so that's the real price we're probably facing. Second, for those who own no Red gear (such as myself), the minimum cost to just shoot (not edit) with Scarlet would be the $14,000 package. And then to even transcode on a regular basis, the common advice is you really need to get Red Rocket, which is almost $5000. Most people would probably want at least one more 64GB Redmag ($950), and probably more goodies. So depending on how much you have/need, Scarlet could easily end up being a far more expensive prospect than the C300. It would be for me. But really Scarlet is a different beast, out-muscling the C300 in cinema-style shoots, but probably not as good for the run-and-gun doc end of shooting or for doing high-end corporate shoots and some commercials without creating a heavy post burden, where the C300 seems it would shine. I view it as a continuum in that respect.

The F3 appears to be the nearest competitor. The C300's advantage there is that it has log gamma already included ($3500+ on the F3). Canon also seems to be claiming that the C300 has a whole new edge on lowlight shooting with great dynamic range. Obviously both those features need to be put to the test to see their true value, and I can't wait for a C300 vs. F3 shoot-out. It's worth noting that Sony has a $800 rebate currently going for the F3 through Dec. 31 I think. So Canon, there's another reason to announce a price drop ASAP before people go the F3 route. Add the fact that the Canon 50mbps bit rate is acceptable to broadcasters, and I can see an argument being made for the C300 being slightly more expensive than the F3 if and only if it proves to deliver truly cleaner lowlight footage with no major points lost to the F3. The obvious advantage to EF glass owners is that we can finally use our lenses on a great camera. I canceled my pre-order for a Birger AF100-EF adapter this morning. Man, did that feel good. ;-)

There are still a lot of unknowns. Can we add a PL mount to the EF version of the C300? Will it support the IS function on EF lenses (you'd think so, but I haven't seen it confirmed)? Is special software needed to get the most out of Canon log? Can the camera be upgraded via firmware later to output 4:4:4? Are we positive the SDI out is 10-bit (Philip Bloom wrote it is, but I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere else)? I think Canon needs to be much more thorough in putting out info on this camera, especially since they're obviously aware of the buzz and how much scrutiny the camera will be put under.
 
I truly wonder how many people who are saying these kinds of things have ever even opened an R3D file in a modern editor or in RedCineX. I've cut 4K R3D on my 3 year old laptop with no Red Rocket. You don't have to cut in 4K. There are numerous workflows. Everything from cutting proxies, to transcoding to DPX/EXR, to totally going lightweight to something like MJpeg or similar. You only incur as much post burden as you feel you need to. If you want to cut 4K RAW from beginning to finish, yea, you are going to need a monster system. But who does that? Hell, Avatar was cut in 2D on DNx36! And so was Ironman. Surely, that level of finished product was sufficient. And DNx36 or similar can be cut easily on any PC or Mac made since 2008.

TwinCitiesShooter said:
...And then to even transcode on a regular basis, the common advice is you really need to get Red Rocket, which is almost $5000.
...probably not as good for the run-and-gun doc end of shooting or for doing high-end corporate shoots and some commercials without creating a heavy post burden, where the C300 seems it would shine.
Click to expand...
 
PerroneFord said:
I truly wonder how many people who are saying these kinds of things have ever even opened an R3D file in a modern editor or in RedCineX. I've cut 4K R3D on my 3 year old laptop with no Red Rocket. You don't have to cut in 4K. There are numerous workflows. Everything from cutting proxies, to transcoding to DPX/EXR, to totally going lightweight to something like MJpeg or similar. You only incur as much post burden as you feel you need to. If you want to cut 4K RAW from beginning to finish, yea, you are going to need a monster system. But who does that? Hell, Avatar was cut in 2D on DNx36! And so was Ironman. Surely, that level of finished product was sufficient. And DNx36 or similar can be cut easily on any PC or Mac made since 2008.
Click to expand...

Note I said "transcode." I know the editing is done with ProRes files, that's not the issue. The issue is I edit most of what I shoot, and I can't be waiting 24+ hours to transcode a large amount of footage on my MBP.
 
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I like your options, I'd put together one of those online petitions and get it going. I personally think option A is really all that is gonna happen since B requires probably hardware changes and if they are shipping end of January, it's too late for that.

I think $9k street sound right as well, $10k list, personally, given the specs so far.
 
Save your time, buy something else. Canon will get the idea when their sales start slowing down, if and only if this happens, will they make a change.
 
knock out said:
Save your time, buy something else. Canon will get the idea when their sales start slowing down, if and only if this happens, will they make a change.
Click to expand...

Haha, it's not like signing a petition is any more a waste of time than playing on the internet that I do. For one, I'd be curios to see how many people signed it once it started making the rounds.
 
Hit them where it hurts (Ask Netflix and Bank of America)

DON'T BUY it and encourage others not to. If you want to petition someone, (which is fine)...
...you might consider appealing to the people who ***might*** buy it in its current state. If no-one buys this thing, Canon will get a clue....again, ask Netflix and Bank of America what that's like.

Cheers!

(And yes, find a camera that suits your needs and go shoot! lol)
 
Rick Burnett said:
Haha, it's not like signing a petition is any more a waste of time than playing on the internet that I do. For one, I'd be curios to see how many people signed it once it started making the rounds.
Click to expand...

Yea, I'm just more curious than anything myself... I don't think it will actually change things... but it would just be nice to send them a big collaborative "nobody is going to buy this". It'll take months to years for them to figure it out for themselves... this may only take days or weeks.

This is web and business 2.0. Let's stop defending these companies and let them know what we want and our thoughts (within reason)...

My thoughts basically are... that my 7D and GH2 are fine for now. I WANT a new camera and WOULD be willing to pay around for $6000 for a new system with upgrades like over-cranking and 4:2:2... but I don't NEED them. So improved IQ, over-cranking, and 4:2:2 internal will get my to open my wallet. But nothing else really. The current DSLRs are still "good enough" to go on camera-strike with.
 
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Save your time, buy something else. Canon will get the idea when their sales start slowing down
Click to expand...
My worry is that there wont be much of a sale to start with...

I like your options, I'd put together one of those online petitions and get it going.
Click to expand...
One advantage of this approach is that additional voices & ideas pouring in. Canon must be reading major forums, at least i hope so....

But really Scarlet is a different beast, out-muscling the C300 in cinema-style shoots, but probably not as good for the run-and-gun doc end of shooting or for doing high-end corporate shoots and some commercials
Click to expand...

Actually I would take out the 'run and gun' (ENG) style from your list. C300 is the least camera for that purpose which is a big bummer for event shooters like us... F3 may be more suitable since we've been told that it has a build in rocker for a potential zoom-lense...(not that it would be affordable) I assume both epic&scarlet have not just auto focus but also touch screen follow focus options...
 
Yeah I say after a little collaboration, let's start a petition to them on change.org. To me it would be unprecedented for a user base to do something like this, and it would be interesting to see what kind of response this gets. I'll even start the petition if you'd like, I just want to get the message something that others would like to see.

Given the release date, I don't think a focus on features makes sense. The hardware and software is probably VERY close to being done and any change for hardware related would probably be ignored.

I'd say approximately $10k list price given what we know. If someone wants to write up what you did in the form of a statement, tomorrow morning I'll get it started and post the link back.

Thoughts?
 
And even if it isn't feasibly possible to make the C300 available for that amount, maybe there will be a large enough turn out of support to indicate the number of people who are looking for a camera in that range with those features.
 
I'll work on a section as well. About how we know the tech the C300 is using is offered for much less (XF100+T2i=$20,000?)... and why they used a 4 year old DigicIII when the 1DX is running dual DigicV's and cranking out 14fps RAW for $7000. The 1DX has got have about the same throughput as the Scarlet-X...

...this is hurting my brain.
 
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GH2user said:
I'll work on a section as well. About how we know the tech the C300 is using is offered for much less (XF100+T2i=$20,000?)... and why they used a 6 year old DigicIII when the 1DX is running dual DigicV's and cranking out 14fps RAW for $7000. The 1DX has got have about the same throughput as the Scarlet-X...

...this is hurting my brain.
Click to expand...
Have you seen the digicV chip process the mpeg 2 50mbit 422 codec? How about the DigicIV? They are still camera processors. The C300, the xf305, the Xf105 all have the "DV" digicIII. It's not the DV Digic-V. Nor is there a DV Digic IV. Don;t forget to add the "DV" in front of that processor.
 
Rick,
I have been a fan of your posts for a long time. You always make good sense and I always feel a lot of experience behind your comments.

But, I think what you might want to consider is that Canon never intended to make money on this camera.

I think it's a vanity project.

Canon goes to Hollywood.

The real story is the trickle down. What Canon does on the 2nd C camera and the smaller ones is where they are going to make their real money. High fashion is for selling the image, ready to wear is where the dough is. The only thing that worries me is that they seem to be really behind the loop on this. They are at least another year away from serving the very crowd that made them start thinking about Hollywood to begin with.


What Canon has shown once again is that they are out of touch, and they had better wake up soon to the needs of the under 6K crowd, because when those folks finally find the right exit they won't be waiting around out of a sense of loyalty to their L series lenses.
 
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It's not perfect, but it's all I have time to write tonight. Feel free to tell me what is wrong. I wanted to keep it relatively short and kinda general. This will probably do nothing, but let's see how many signatures we get. I will set it up for say 10,000 signatures as a target.



Dear Canon,


I, along with countless other people around the world, hoped that November 3rd would be indeed historic. As we watched the information through live blog streams across the internet, we were enthralled by the images being shown of the EOS C300 camera. Here we felt you expanded on the success of the 5D, 7D and countless other video DSLR cameras to present a logical stepping stone to move up to the next level. Even the body of the camera alone was like an extension of a DSLR to the next level. Everything was amazing, until a member on the discussion panel mentioned $20k as the list price.


After pouring through the specifications that showed up on your website, I cannot understand why the C300 camera is $20k. Looking at the technology you've borrowed from your own cameras costing somewhere around $3500 (XDCAM codec and hardware) and assuming some of the same technology comes from the 1DX sensor ($7K) along with limitations internally of 8-bit, this price tag seems highly unrealistic. Even comparing the camera to the specifications and quality of the Red Scarlet-X makes me scratch my head at what you were trying to accomplish. Even the FS100 and AF100 shoot internally to 8-bit. The FS100 can do 1080p60 even. The F3 with similar stats will be more than a year old when the C300 starts to ship.


We feel that Canon is skipping right past a huge user base that has waited patiently for the next wave of technology. Since the 5D we've seen camera after camera all suffering from the same sensor performance back to the 5D. It seems you plan on walking past all those people who've surprised you by taking your camera to a new level and different market that you didn't expect. This is the thanks we get?


We feel a target price of $10k is more inline with the features and performance that we've seen so far. I'd put a deposit down now if that's the price point Canon could hit. Please don't abandon your existing VDSLR user base.


Sincerely,


A Canon User
 
To the OP: Your complaints for the letter are somewhat valid, but I wanted to add these two points:

-Canon may not have "raw" but it does have Canon LOG. Whether or not Red's raw is a true raw or not, both outputs allow you greater flexibility in grading. The major drawback of the Canon is that both the XF codec and Canon Log are processed out as 8 bit (10 bit through the SDI). So the greater drawback for me, is not that it doesn't output "raw" but that it outputs 8 bit to its onboard cf cards.

-FOr me the big drawback is that Canon lacks 60P. Basically the same frame rates you can get on a DSLR.

-12 stops of latitude versus 14 for the latest F3 fixes, and 13 for the Red Scarlet/Epic.

I'm not sure that this camera is competitive unless it's reduced to sub F3 pricing.
 
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