On the fence about the 5D

[Antis3al]

Hey all, I know I'm brand new but was informed that the people here could help me answer some of the questions / concerns I have about buying a camera system like the 5D mark II.

Recently, I have gained the privilege to blow $5,000 bucks on a video camera. I had taken a interest in the Canon XH-A1 with an accompanied Brevis 35mm lens adaptor, though that sends me over budget a bit when you get into mounting with rails and the flip module.

Then, a friend told me about the canon 5d mark II. I poked around and peeped out some footage from the camera and was really stunned by the quality, so much so that I started to rethink the XH-A1.

However, my main worries with the camera seems to be in its rolling shutter problems and audio.

The 'jello' effect that occurs with these DSLR video cameras seems intermittent, if you shoot fast enough, does this effect go away? If so what shutter speed is appropriate? If not then what can be done? My shoot would sometimes require dynamic camera pans and sweeps, so this could be a deal breaker for me.

Secondly, I understand there is a audio in for the camera, but you must buy a beach tech module to allow the camera a manual audio level. Compared to on-board XLR inputs like the XH-A1, is there a difference in sound quality?

I have pondered the 7D as well, but I feel like the 5D packs a little more punch in the imaging department, and seems to be more friendly with low light situations, which is a plus. However, if I need to be spending big, the 7D might fit better for budget reasons. I also hear that it flows a bit better in post, how so?


Thanks a million, that's pretty much all I wanted to get feedback on before I committed to buying.

 

[Stephen Mick]

What exactly are you going to be shooting? Under what conditions?

 

[Antis3al]

What exactly are you going to be shooting? Under what conditions?

I'm usually shooting on set with completely controlled light. The other half is natural outdoor lighting, middle of the day, as well as late night hard light stuff.

 

[Barry_Green]

The 'jello' effect that occurs with these DSLR video cameras seems intermittent, if you shoot fast enough, does this effect go away? If so what shutter speed is appropriate? If not then what can be done?

Shutter speed has no effect whatsoever on rolling shutter or jello. The only effect a faster shutter speed has on skew is to make it more clearly visible.

Secondly, I understand there is a audio in for the camera, but you must buy a beach tech module to allow the camera a manual audio level. Compared to on-board XLR inputs like the XH-A1, is there a difference in sound quality?

Yes, a huge difference, because (as stock) you cannot turn off the automatic gain control. You would want the Magic Lantern firmware in order to disable the automatic audio gain.

However, if I need to be spending big, the 7D might fit better for budget reasons. I also hear that it flows a bit better in post, how so?

I don't think there's any post differences. The 7D's main advantages over the 5D are the $1,000 lower price tag and the existence of 24p, 25p, 50p and 60p. The 5D's advantages over the 7D are the larger full-frame sensor and its attendant increase in sensitivity, and being a better stills camera.

 

[Antis3al]

Yes, a huge difference, because (as stock) you cannot turn off the automatic gain control. You would want the Magic Lantern firmware in order to disable the automatic audio gain.

But as far as sheer quality of audio in terms of bit rate / signal strength / interference, is there a difference?

Also, is this firmware available for the 7D as well?

 

[PerroneFord]

If you want to do professional level audio, don't record into the 5D/7D. I wouldn't use the XH-A1 for that either. Buy a pro-level audio recorder if you want pro level sound.

The sensitivity of the 5D over the 7D should have nearly no bearing if you are controlling the light. We shot one scene at 1600 ISO on the 5D and I set a max of 400 ISO for the rest of the film. Basically, I shot it like I would a film camera. ISO 100 outside, ISO 400 inside. Kept the lighting setups simple. We did have to push to 800 ISO for a single shot, but that was a rare exception.

If you need to whip pan the camera and not see skew, buy something else. You couldn't even do that with film. So if you don't want to follow film conventions, then buy a video camera like the A1.

 

[yoclay]

The A1 is an aging camera. Forget the Brevis (I had one) with the A1, too limited in terms of DOF and shutter speed choices and it all becomes too unwieldy. It really is yesterday's technology. There are better deals out there and I suspect Canon will soon be either making a replacement for the A1 or folding it's technology into DSLR's. (Probably the former rather than the latter, in my opinion). For audio, if you want to buy the 7D and record into the camera, the only choice you have right now is the Beachtek, not great. With the 5D, you can go Magic Lantern and a good pre-amp mini-box with XLR's like a Juicedlink. Sounds excellent. Both of these DSLR's have a lot of artifacts, but a great look. For all-around image quality, I would say the Sony EX1 is a pretty good camera, though a touch more expensive than your budget.

 

[fates]

I've had surprisingly good luck with the Juiced Link XLR adapter and the 5D, and have captured decent sound in RnG scenarios. I'd pick the 5D over the 7D... but maybe wait until the firmware update to the 5D and see what it makes this camera into... my .02

 

[ydgmdlu]

I also hear that it flows a bit better in post, how so?

Please note that the 5D only does 30p today. Sometime in the first half of next year, which might be sooner or later, it will receive a firmware update that will allow it to record 24p as well. If you want 24p on the 5D today, the only way to achieve it is through retiming techniques in post that are imperfect (there will be occasional bad frames) as well as extremely time-consuming (several minutes takes several hours to render on even a very fast computer). For some, that is a deal-breaker, though for many it's not. Just another thing to consider.

The other thing to note is that the 5D currently shoots exactly 30.00 fps (though the 24p firmware will also supposedly fix this as well). This could cause trouble with audio if you shoot double-system.

If you want to do fast action with minimal rolling shutter problems, you should consider a CMOS camera that can do 60p, such as the 7D and the GH1. In 60p, these cameras scan their sensors at a much higher rate than in the 24p and 30p modes, resulting in drastically reduced skew and jello. Otherwise, just about any traditional camcorder will have fewer rolling shutter issues compared to the DSLRs.

Also, don't forget about the lenses. If you intend on getting high-quality, modern auto-focus lenses instead of inexpensive, old (but still very high-quality) manual lenses, then the glass may grow to consume the majority of your budget. But you can manage just fine on a set of old manual primes for under $500.

Neither the 5D nor the 7D can auto-focus while recording video. If this is important to you, then these cameras are not for you. The GH1 can auto-focus with its stock lens. Both Canons also lack histogram, peaking, and zebra-stripe features, at least without the Magic Lantern custom firmware (which is currently only available for the 5D). And both Canons can only record up to about 12 minutes per clip.

The DSLRs have aliasing issues that a traditional camcorder, such as the XH-A1, won't have.

 

[ydgmdlu]

But as far as sheer quality of audio in terms of bit rate / signal strength / interference, is there a difference?

Something that doesn't get mentioned enough is that the digitizing and recording mechanism on a camera also affects the final sound quality. It's never been great on prosumer camcorders, and I would expect it to only be worse on the DSLRs, which only do video as a hacked add-on bonus function.

Consider buying a decent external recorder. The best bang-for-the-buck seems to be the Zoom H4n. You can also get the PluralEyes plug-in for Final Cut Pro, which automatically syncs the sound files from the recorder to the video clips from the camera. It works by matching waveforms with the camera's on-board sound.

 

[sandisfield]

It is not necessary for you to buy a recorder. It's as necessary for you to buy one as it is necessary for the sound guy on your shoot to buy a camera. Two different departments.

If you want to do professional level audio, don't record into the 5D/7D. I wouldn't use the XH-A1 for that either. Buy a pro-level audio recorder if you want pro level sound.

The sensitivity of the 5D over the 7D should have nearly no bearing if you are controlling the light. We shot one scene at 1600 ISO on the 5D and I set a max of 400 ISO for the rest of the film. Basically, I shot it like I would a film camera. ISO 100 outside, ISO 400 inside. Kept the lighting setups simple. We did have to push to 800 ISO for a single shot, but that was a rare exception.

If you need to whip pan the camera and not see skew, buy something else. You couldn't even do that with film. So if you don't want to follow film conventions, then buy a video camera like the A1.