I think terms like "brittle" are kind of dumb myself. There's no such thing as a bad sounding mic if it's in good shape. Every mic can find a use. What sounds terrible in one situation can be just right in another. Some mics just don't get used much because there aren't many of those situations that come up where you'll need them, and we tend to think of them as bad sounding mics because of that. Eletcrovoice had a mike called the EV 664 back in the 60s that was kind of the SM57 of its day, but to be honest I never liked those mics at all. Very tubby sounding. But boy do they sound good on a blues harmonica through a guitar amp. That's absolutely the only use I have for them.
Oktava MK012. Thumbs up or down as a hypercardiod?
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I love the Oktava's but when I was comparing mics the Schoeps have an incredible transient response. This maybe what your calling "brittle" And indeed it could be very unflattering to some sounds. But remember I coming from a primarily FX recording orientation so more "detail" is usually better.
for Foley work we had a AKG C1000 that we would pull out when we needed to "soften" grit on footsteps, etc. It has a sluggish transient response that nicely smoothes out overly gritty grit. Good for doing female FS if your a guy.
BTW the "transient" analysis was empirical basted on some tests I did on different kinds of sounds. It may in fact be some other factor but thinking of it as a transient response time accurately predicted how the mics behaved. Just to stop some off tangent with some specs to prove that the TR is actually the same etc.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Don't take this the wrong way. And I love the mics in the BG there, and I'm a mic junkie and this would probably be a great other thread but just a reminder of the original question.
So I think a discussion of cool mics and what they are good for is actually a good thread here that would be useful to a lot of the readers, it's not this thread.
You start it and I will try to find the boxes my odd and weird collection of mics are in and we can wax rhapsodically over over cool mics.
Cheers
SK
You mean like this one:
Nobody seems to these days, but 60 years ago everybody did. You will never find a better mic to use on a set than an old Ribbon mic. They're no good out of doors (unless you're in the country) because they pick up too much extraneous noise. But they cannot be beat on a quiet set. That's why they're still used primarily as stage mics at plays. They sound incredibly full even from several feet back. One on each end of the set is all you need for a play. You'll notice Hitchcock was smart enough to always tilt the mic so that the back was pointing toward the ceiling where there was less noise. That's typically how plays are mic'ed too and always have been since the 30s.
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Really? Your advocating 68* year old Big budget Hollywood feature techniques to someone who wants to spend under $350 for a mic to shoot video. They were also recording to optical film at the time because magnetic recording in the US was about ten years away. I assume your not advocating for those also.
I have done a LOT of stage work and I have never seen one on a stage except as a prop. Stage plays are not commonly miced at all. Musicals started getting miced in the late 60's, but they wouldn't have been miced with ribbon mics.
The reason you tilted those old Ribbon mics like that is because it made the ribbon sag in a way that sounds very nice on some voices. It was very common when you didn't need both side active. However I suspect that in this case it was to try and aim the mic at the person who is talking.
At the time your talking about ribbon mics were the most sensitive mics in common usage. Condenser mics would come in that could be powered with "T" power (earlier ones were large and even more fragile and needed high voltage power supplies) and that killed off Ribbon mics for production work mostly. Ribbon mics sound great on some things (including many voices) but they are as a rule very low output and very fragile. They are also side address. And they are generally heavy, often really heavy. There is no boom man holding the mic on a pole in your shots because it would take a weight lifter to do it for the length of a take.
Radio used Ribbon mics a lot and the recording industry used them on vocals.
But remember we are talking micro budget video production recording.
*Shadow of a Doubt was 1943
I have done a LOT of stage work and I have never seen one on a stage except as a prop. Stage plays are not commonly miced at all. Musicals started getting miced in the late 60's, but they wouldn't have been miced with ribbon mics.
The reason you tilted those old Ribbon mics like that is because it made the ribbon sag in a way that sounds very nice on some voices. It was very common when you didn't need both side active. However I suspect that in this case it was to try and aim the mic at the person who is talking.
At the time your talking about ribbon mics were the most sensitive mics in common usage. Condenser mics would come in that could be powered with "T" power (earlier ones were large and even more fragile and needed high voltage power supplies) and that killed off Ribbon mics for production work mostly. Ribbon mics sound great on some things (including many voices) but they are as a rule very low output and very fragile. They are also side address. And they are generally heavy, often really heavy. There is no boom man holding the mic on a pole in your shots because it would take a weight lifter to do it for the length of a take.
Radio used Ribbon mics a lot and the recording industry used them on vocals.
But remember we are talking micro budget video production recording.
*Shadow of a Doubt was 1943
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ullanta
Veteran
"brittle" is never a compliment! In classical recording, mics that are hyped in certain frequency ranges tend to emphasize undesireable sounds - scratchiness of strings, feet on stage, page turns, Air hissing of winds, and other little incidental sounds in a way that makes for unpleasant sound, which kinda grates on the ear… that's what I mean br brittle!
Rippie
Veteran
I'm kinda at a loss on this one.
ullanta
Veteran
It's just that, I think the original question has been addressed as well as possible?
1. There are better mics than the Oktava/hyper for boom work, but it is decent, and good for the price
2. Proper mounting/isolation and especially handling can tame its sensitivity to handling and wind noise
3. As always, test a mic yourself, see if you like it yourself... that's most important!
(also... not to be off-topic... but ribbon mics primarily as stage mics for plays? Also never seen such, and in the stage work I do almost daily, a ribbon mic wouldn't survive long at al. And, it would be too large! Obtrusive! That's why we have boundary mics...)
1. There are better mics than the Oktava/hyper for boom work, but it is decent, and good for the price
2. Proper mounting/isolation and especially handling can tame its sensitivity to handling and wind noise
3. As always, test a mic yourself, see if you like it yourself... that's most important!
(also... not to be off-topic... but ribbon mics primarily as stage mics for plays? Also never seen such, and in the stage work I do almost daily, a ribbon mic wouldn't survive long at al. And, it would be too large! Obtrusive! That's why we have boundary mics...)
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I did? When? Not that he couldn't. MXL makes an RCA 77 knockoff for $400 that's a great mic. They have others as cheap as a hundred bucks that aren't bad either. You need to get out more.
No. Are you recommending children play in traffic?
I don't know what "miced" is (something to do with cats I take it?), and I don't believe you've ever been on a soundstage in your life. Secondly, every single Fox theater has ribbon mics. Nearly every TV talk show has ribbon mics for the desk mic. Stage plays are mic'ed all the time—almost always. And any musical in the 60s would have surely been using ribbon mics. There was little else to choose from for that kind of job at the time.
But then, we've already seen your lack of knowledge on the subject when you said "Nobody is going to stick a ribbon mic on a boom and try to do production work with it." You'd be hard pressed to find a film made before 1970 where a ribbon mic wasn't used on a boom. Or do I need to show you more pictures?
NOBODY ever once did that on a sound stage! No one was EVER dumb enough to consider a sagging ribbon as a desirable effect until a few years ago. Show me a book on the subject written before 2000 that says this. Just one. You tilt the mic back to keep the other side away from the noise of the cameras and crane operators obviously and for no other reason.
I'm sorry, but it's very obvious from your comments that you're simply making stuff up. How about we see your collection of them? Here's the last one I acquired. It was given to me by the art director at KMOV TV in St. Louis and hundreds of well known people have used it over the years. I had Steve Sank refurbish it down in Arizona last year. (His father designed the mic when he worked at RCA.) May I ask, where are yours?
Absolutely not true. It was the invention of dynamic mics with their high SPL ratings that started a decline in ribbon mic use for a number of years.
Low output, yes. Fragile? Hardly. Only the element itself is fragile to wind. It's almost impossible to find a vintage ribbon mic that doesn't have a banged up grille from having been dropped dozens of times. Every old ribbon mic is mounted on rubber grommets that are generally huge, which is why you don't need a shock mount with them either. You'd have to drive a truck over one to hurt it.
There IS a boom man holding the pole in every shot. Using a fulcrum is hardly difficult. About 75% of every great movie was made using one.
Gee, ya think? They still do. Since the Chinese started making inexpensive knockoffs more than a decade ago, ribbon mics have made a huge comeback. No decent production studio is without a few. Expensive ones with new designs and higher output to match modern boards are bigger than ever too. Boyer is selling tons of them.
So this is too expensive?- MXL R144 Price $100
Then you know nothing about ribbon mics either and have never done stage work. Aside from blowing too hard on the element, exactly what's fragile about them? They're built like tanks. There is no tougher mic made than the old RCA and Shure ribbons mics. And replacing the ribbon is hardly difficult, nor expensive. My last ribbon, and that was an aluminum alloy for a vintage mic, was still only a hundred dollars and that included the fee to install it which I could have done myself.
Really? Like this one from Boyer?
I'd like to say that I've never come across two know nothing pretenders on the weird wide web before, but unfortunately it's all too common and is exactly why, according to the last government survey, only 5% of all internet users ever use forums or chats. And it's exactly why I'm done with this one. You two really need to get jobs and out of your mother's basements. You can't fix stupid. And I don't have time for stupid.
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Luis Caffesse
Admin
Read the rules.
This thread went off the rails a while ago - a member tried to warn me, but honestly I thought it was premature to close it.
I should have listened.
No personal attacks, no disrespecting other members... and most importantly - keep things on topic.
Keep that in mind for the next thread though, because this one is done.
This thread went off the rails a while ago - a member tried to warn me, but honestly I thought it was premature to close it.
I should have listened.
No personal attacks, no disrespecting other members... and most importantly - keep things on topic.
Keep that in mind for the next thread though, because this one is done.
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