Ok, lets talk P2 and workflow...
- Thread starter evinsky
- Start date
Anders Holck
Well-known member
I think you guys are overreacting a bit:
- Firestore has already announced upcoming HDV support. DVCPRO HD could easily be forthcoming...
- Jan, has stated in another thread that: "I assume you mean will the files have an MXF wrapper. And the answer is via the USB port but not through the 1394 play out. The MXF wrapper holds the the individual files together, meta data, audio, video, and proxy. If streaming out of the 1394, then no, it is a DVCPRO HD file, or DVCPRO50 file or DVCPRO..."
This would imply that the camera has both a USB connector and a firewire connector.
Media on the P2 will use the MXF format, but the stream OVER THE BUILD IN FIREWIRE CONNECTOR is a standard DVCPRO HD stream. So support for this should be trivial for HD recorder manufacturers as long as their bus supports the increased bandwidth.
- Firestore has already announced upcoming HDV support. DVCPRO HD could easily be forthcoming...
- Jan, has stated in another thread that: "I assume you mean will the files have an MXF wrapper. And the answer is via the USB port but not through the 1394 play out. The MXF wrapper holds the the individual files together, meta data, audio, video, and proxy. If streaming out of the 1394, then no, it is a DVCPRO HD file, or DVCPRO50 file or DVCPRO..."
This would imply that the camera has both a USB connector and a firewire connector.
Media on the P2 will use the MXF format, but the stream OVER THE BUILD IN FIREWIRE CONNECTOR is a standard DVCPRO HD stream. So support for this should be trivial for HD recorder manufacturers as long as their bus supports the increased bandwidth.
I would put with a pain in the butt for real 1080 24P. It's worth the hassle, worth the swapping, uploading, and extra planning. For those who want to stick to tape there's always HDV.
Shake that camera
Shake that camera
Ok, I've had a good night's sleep to refresh my attitude.
These P2 capacity issues are exactly the same thing as when I bought a digital camera a couple years ago. The storage card that came with it was only big enough to save something like 16 pictures at the highest resolution. Although I could get almost a hundred pics if I went with the lower resultion, I waited 6 months to really use the camera in production until I could afford a big enough storage card that I could save 100 pictures at high res before swapping cards.
The overhead of swapping was just too disruptive to have anything less than at least 100 picture capacity. These days, I can get a single storage card that let's me snap pictures all day without a change.
Now lets revisit the P2 solution.
Just like the digital camera, I'm buying the HVX because of its capability to capture higher resolution images. Frankly, most of the kinds of projects that I work on allow me the flexibility to start/stop the camera to swap cards, or to be tethered to a large (i.e. a laptop) capture device. So I'm going to hope that a FireStor device is available around the time I need to record for more than, say, 30 minutes. If not, well, then the project has to pay the premium for the storage.
I'm predicting that all you early adopters are going to rapidly get tired of this card-swapping thing.
Shake that camera
Ok, I've had a good night's sleep to refresh my attitude.
These P2 capacity issues are exactly the same thing as when I bought a digital camera a couple years ago. The storage card that came with it was only big enough to save something like 16 pictures at the highest resolution. Although I could get almost a hundred pics if I went with the lower resultion, I waited 6 months to really use the camera in production until I could afford a big enough storage card that I could save 100 pictures at high res before swapping cards.
The overhead of swapping was just too disruptive to have anything less than at least 100 picture capacity. These days, I can get a single storage card that let's me snap pictures all day without a change.
Now lets revisit the P2 solution.
Just like the digital camera, I'm buying the HVX because of its capability to capture higher resolution images. Frankly, most of the kinds of projects that I work on allow me the flexibility to start/stop the camera to swap cards, or to be tethered to a large (i.e. a laptop) capture device. So I'm going to hope that a FireStor device is available around the time I need to record for more than, say, 30 minutes. If not, well, then the project has to pay the premium for the storage.
I'm predicting that all you early adopters are going to rapidly get tired of this card-swapping thing.
Liberty or death
Liberty or death
As far as the issue of how many P2 slots the HVX will have, think about it:
It has got to have at least two. One would be worse than none! With two, you can do the hot-swap thing perpetually.
A year from the introduction of the camera, we might see a 16Gig P2 card. Hmmm, at that time (assuming the cards are affordable!) the whole swapping issue kind of fades away. That's the tip-over point when we'll all slap our foreheads and say that Panasonic was brilliant for building in solid-state storage capability.
"...Remember when we used to have to change tapes every hour? Chuckle, chuckle, hand me another beer."
Liberty or death
As far as the issue of how many P2 slots the HVX will have, think about it:
It has got to have at least two. One would be worse than none! With two, you can do the hot-swap thing perpetually.
A year from the introduction of the camera, we might see a 16Gig P2 card. Hmmm, at that time (assuming the cards are affordable!) the whole swapping issue kind of fades away. That's the tip-over point when we'll all slap our foreheads and say that Panasonic was brilliant for building in solid-state storage capability.
"...Remember when we used to have to change tapes every hour? Chuckle, chuckle, hand me another beer."
Anders:
The reason the FireStor was such an elegant solution for DV capture was that the hard drives at the time were fully capable of sustaining the bitrate necessary to manage the DV stream. But now we're talking 40 or 100Mbits/sec, and this starts to push the edges of what a single drive can reliably sustain.
Yeah, I know that we've got commodity drives which handle 20MB/sec sustained transfer rates, but they gobble power like Jabba the Hutt. The FireStor solution has to manage transfer rate, power, and shock issues. I don't think it will be a trivial matter to add support for DVCPRO HD data streams.
The reason the FireStor was such an elegant solution for DV capture was that the hard drives at the time were fully capable of sustaining the bitrate necessary to manage the DV stream. But now we're talking 40 or 100Mbits/sec, and this starts to push the edges of what a single drive can reliably sustain.
Yeah, I know that we've got commodity drives which handle 20MB/sec sustained transfer rates, but they gobble power like Jabba the Hutt. The FireStor solution has to manage transfer rate, power, and shock issues. I don't think it will be a trivial matter to add support for DVCPRO HD data streams.
This has already been brought up, but P2 swapping is similar to swapping film magazines. If you have that experience, you'll plan accordingly. This may not be a bad thing for all of us kids raised in the digital era. It will force people to think more about their shots, possibly even make better films because they're not shooting a lot of footage because tape is cheap.
We don't have all the answers yet, and you're going to have to be patient these next few weeks until we get more information. At the moment this camera may be better suited for those doing film projects than event videography. It doesn't really make sense to cover an event in HD since you have no delivery format for it yet.
An 8GB P2 card is supposed to debut later on this year, probably right around the time that the camera comes onto the market. And if this camera's hot third party companies will respond and create P2 media. It's coming. Chill, have a beer, let NAB roll around, and then Jan can answer all of our questions and then some.
We don't have all the answers yet, and you're going to have to be patient these next few weeks until we get more information. At the moment this camera may be better suited for those doing film projects than event videography. It doesn't really make sense to cover an event in HD since you have no delivery format for it yet.
An 8GB P2 card is supposed to debut later on this year, probably right around the time that the camera comes onto the market. And if this camera's hot third party companies will respond and create P2 media. It's coming. Chill, have a beer, let NAB roll around, and then Jan can answer all of our questions and then some.
no thanks
no thanks
Isaac:
Using the excuse that film crews are already used to swapping 400' catridges every 4 minutes is lame when addressing the shortcomings of P2 capacity. It would be like saying, 'here, use this digital camcorder, which will free you from having to develop film. Oh, but, you have to make sure you turn this crank on the side so that the hard drive spins.'
Huh? It was jarring as an argument when presented in Jarred's Dvxuser P2 article, and it is unconvincing now. We adopt new technologies because they offer significant functionality over and above whatever they are replacing. Imposing a 4 to 8 minute swapping cycle as an alternative to tape is not, to me, compelling.
Like I've been saying before, time will fix this problem. I guess I'm just reacting to what I saw as 'ooohhh P2, it must be good!' kinds of posts. Anyway, Jan dropped a hint the size of a small moon in another thread that pretty much renders this discussion academic.
We don't really know anything yet. All we've seen is a shrouded DVX look-alike. (That was the most eeeevil and effective marketing tactic I've seen in a long time, so congrats to the marketing people.) All this buzz is exactly what Panasonic wants! I fully expect that the HVX will do everything I want it to, and more.
no thanks
Isaac:
Using the excuse that film crews are already used to swapping 400' catridges every 4 minutes is lame when addressing the shortcomings of P2 capacity. It would be like saying, 'here, use this digital camcorder, which will free you from having to develop film. Oh, but, you have to make sure you turn this crank on the side so that the hard drive spins.'
Huh? It was jarring as an argument when presented in Jarred's Dvxuser P2 article, and it is unconvincing now. We adopt new technologies because they offer significant functionality over and above whatever they are replacing. Imposing a 4 to 8 minute swapping cycle as an alternative to tape is not, to me, compelling.
Like I've been saying before, time will fix this problem. I guess I'm just reacting to what I saw as 'ooohhh P2, it must be good!' kinds of posts. Anyway, Jan dropped a hint the size of a small moon in another thread that pretty much renders this discussion academic.
We don't really know anything yet. All we've seen is a shrouded DVX look-alike. (That was the most eeeevil and effective marketing tactic I've seen in a long time, so congrats to the marketing people.) All this buzz is exactly what Panasonic wants! I fully expect that the HVX will do everything I want it to, and more.
Anders Holck
Well-known member
speedbump said:
Yes, but the Hitachi E5K100 has a write speed of around 17MB/s worst case. That should work for a 100mbs stream.
The power consumption is only 2W when writing.
Even the 7200 Hitachi E7K60 is only 2.5W when writing.
It's a only matter of time, the problem right now is the FS hardware not the drive.
But when I'm shooting I always bring my PB anyways so when the HDX200 is shipping 2x8GB cards
should be sufficient even for long takes, or else a long Firewire cable can hook up to my PB.More evil
More evil
Here's an evil thought:
Slap a gigabit ethernet port on the camera, and have the firmware support Windows networking, so all you have to do is plug the camera into your laptop, mount a share, and capture to your heart's content. Since everyone supports Samba, you don't care if its a Windows, OS X, Linux, or SGI computer at the other end of the camera.
Muahahaha!
More evil
Here's an evil thought:
Slap a gigabit ethernet port on the camera, and have the firmware support Windows networking, so all you have to do is plug the camera into your laptop, mount a share, and capture to your heart's content. Since everyone supports Samba, you don't care if its a Windows, OS X, Linux, or SGI computer at the other end of the camera.
Muahahaha!
Phooey
Active member
USB 2, firewire, firewire 800, gigabit ethernet. They'll all work, and none are the problem. In fact, I think gigabit ethernet would suffer from other transports because of lack of power. Any the weather. Jan, are you saying that the HVX will stream DVCPROHD through firewire, but you'd have to capture it live in FCP? And it will export the MXF files with separate folders and metadata and all that through USB? Can it do that live, or just as a transfer from the P2 card?
I have a feeling someone is going to have to come up with a PCMCIA card with a firewire port on the other end and software to put on your external harddrive to essentially make the HVX think it has a 256 GB P2 card in it.
Personally, I do not mind work arounds for an affordable HD solution. They are temporary problems anyway.
I have a feeling someone is going to have to come up with a PCMCIA card with a firewire port on the other end and software to put on your external harddrive to essentially make the HVX think it has a 256 GB P2 card in it.
Personally, I do not mind work arounds for an affordable HD solution. They are temporary problems anyway.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Hi,
NAB!
Peace out,
Jan
NAB!
Peace out,
Jan
hvx p2 in regards to final cut pro/avid
hvx p2 in regards to final cut pro/avid
fast forward to fall/winter 2005...
equipment:
mac g5, g4 powerbook, broadcast monitor, dv deck, g raid 800 firewire drive. i'm editing in fcp4.5(hopeflly 5 by then). i have an hvx in hand w/ 2 p2 cards...am i correct in saying that if i were to shoot in dvcpro(25), this would be the same as shooting dv and thus not needing additional equipment/boards?
if shooting dvcpro50 or hd, would i need to add a card such as a kona 2 or black magic and possibly a hd monitor?
hvx p2 in regards to final cut pro/avid
fast forward to fall/winter 2005...
equipment:
mac g5, g4 powerbook, broadcast monitor, dv deck, g raid 800 firewire drive. i'm editing in fcp4.5(hopeflly 5 by then). i have an hvx in hand w/ 2 p2 cards...am i correct in saying that if i were to shoot in dvcpro(25), this would be the same as shooting dv and thus not needing additional equipment/boards?
if shooting dvcpro50 or hd, would i need to add a card such as a kona 2 or black magic and possibly a hd monitor?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.speedbump said:
And once you work with P2, you will *never* want to put up with tape again. Just like tape has been exorcised from every other place we've used it (audio recording, music recording, computer storage, etc) it will also be eliminated from video recording. The nonlinear advantages are simply too compelling.
:cheesy:
Rick Haywood
Member
A post from 3 years ago?…
“I was thinking of changing my 35mm still camera over to one of these new digital models but I have some real concerns. :undecided
Assuming that I can get the same quality as my 35mm camera (some say better) I am really concerned about having to put those little flash memory cards on the shelf – that seems kinda expensive. I know that I can view them on my PC ‘n all, but I dunno’, I just don’t feel crazy about copying them to my hard drive – don’t those things fail?
Someone told me I could copy them to CD-ROM or even DVD (one day) but that sounds like a hassle and I may need to employ someone just to keep doing that for me. I know that I could get instant access to all my pictures and even archive them and find them again, but I dunno’. Someone even tells me that I can edit them in my laptop in the field and show the client straight away on set or in my studio, but I dunno’.
The problem is that I like to shoot 2-300 pictures when I shoot and those little cards will only hold 20-30 at a time so I will have to have a whole bunch of those expensive cards. Someone said something about hard drives you can use in the field to store up to 1000 photos but I’ve never had to do that before.
I think I’ll stick to paying for rolls of film, then sending them off to the lab and getting the proofs back a week later then paying through the nose for the prints then filing the negs in my hermetically sealed cabinet and writing them all down in my notebook. Why would I ever want to share those with anyone across a computer network anyway?
I figure these digital camera things are a passing fad, the memory is way too small and way too expensive, they’ll never take off. Mind you that one that records pictures to a floppy disk looks pretty good, just like using film really.”
Sound familiar? Solid state may not be everyone’s soy-milk latte today but it will be great for most, and ready for the rest tomorrow. Just look at the doors it is holding open for you now, 1080/60i, 1080/24p/ 720/60p using a DVCPRO HD intraframe Codec.
Rick Haywood
Manager Broadcast & Display Systems
Panasonic New Zealand Ltd.
“I was thinking of changing my 35mm still camera over to one of these new digital models but I have some real concerns. :undecided
Assuming that I can get the same quality as my 35mm camera (some say better) I am really concerned about having to put those little flash memory cards on the shelf – that seems kinda expensive. I know that I can view them on my PC ‘n all, but I dunno’, I just don’t feel crazy about copying them to my hard drive – don’t those things fail?
Someone told me I could copy them to CD-ROM or even DVD (one day) but that sounds like a hassle and I may need to employ someone just to keep doing that for me. I know that I could get instant access to all my pictures and even archive them and find them again, but I dunno’. Someone even tells me that I can edit them in my laptop in the field and show the client straight away on set or in my studio, but I dunno’.
The problem is that I like to shoot 2-300 pictures when I shoot and those little cards will only hold 20-30 at a time so I will have to have a whole bunch of those expensive cards. Someone said something about hard drives you can use in the field to store up to 1000 photos but I’ve never had to do that before.
I think I’ll stick to paying for rolls of film, then sending them off to the lab and getting the proofs back a week later then paying through the nose for the prints then filing the negs in my hermetically sealed cabinet and writing them all down in my notebook. Why would I ever want to share those with anyone across a computer network anyway?
I figure these digital camera things are a passing fad, the memory is way too small and way too expensive, they’ll never take off. Mind you that one that records pictures to a floppy disk looks pretty good, just like using film really.”
Sound familiar? Solid state may not be everyone’s soy-milk latte today but it will be great for most, and ready for the rest tomorrow. Just look at the doors it is holding open for you now, 1080/60i, 1080/24p/ 720/60p using a DVCPRO HD intraframe Codec.
Rick Haywood
Manager Broadcast & Display Systems
Panasonic New Zealand Ltd.
Aaron Koolen
Well-known member
Rick, interesting post, and glad to have you visit!
By the way, when the HVX200 does come out (I know, no one's said when that is) how long would it take to get into New Zealand? The Sony Z1 seems to have made it here pretty fast, so I'm hoping that the new Panasonic does too. If all the rumour and speculation bears fruition, then it will be my next camera if it gets here in a reasonable time.
Another thing I'd like to know is, do you guys do launches here of the cameras when the arrive? I can't remember hearing of any Panasonic ones in the past but then again, my work is volunteer and I'm not heavily in the industry.
Oh, and of course, if you need someone to test the camera under the harsh New Zealand conditions of Queen Street, Auckland....................
Cheers
Aaron
By the way, when the HVX200 does come out (I know, no one's said when that is) how long would it take to get into New Zealand? The Sony Z1 seems to have made it here pretty fast, so I'm hoping that the new Panasonic does too. If all the rumour and speculation bears fruition, then it will be my next camera if it gets here in a reasonable time.
Another thing I'd like to know is, do you guys do launches here of the cameras when the arrive? I can't remember hearing of any Panasonic ones in the past but then again, my work is volunteer and I'm not heavily in the industry.
Oh, and of course, if you need someone to test the camera under the harsh New Zealand conditions of Queen Street, Auckland....................
Cheers
Aaron
SergejIvanovits
Well-known member
Rick, interesting post, and glad you try to draw a parallel between the cost of production in photography and video.
I'm using 1Gig SD cards to photography. All together 6 cards. I can take ~300 pictures on one card and to put in the next card takes a very Little time. If I could use only 1 card because the prise and the card could only take 10 pictures, than I would use film. To transfer the pictures on the set takes so much time that it is not possible to have a continuous workflow. The same is with the P2 cards. I need 3 cards and someone to transfer the footage to the disk during I still shooting. I guess the data transfer is at least realtime. If it takes more to transfer than to record than I would need more cards. And it costs. BTW. I had 7 SD cards but one has error. Has the P2 cards life time guaranty?
I'm using 1Gig SD cards to photography. All together 6 cards. I can take ~300 pictures on one card and to put in the next card takes a very Little time. If I could use only 1 card because the prise and the card could only take 10 pictures, than I would use film. To transfer the pictures on the set takes so much time that it is not possible to have a continuous workflow. The same is with the P2 cards. I need 3 cards and someone to transfer the footage to the disk during I still shooting. I guess the data transfer is at least realtime. If it takes more to transfer than to record than I would need more cards. And it costs. BTW. I had 7 SD cards but one has error. Has the P2 cards life time guaranty?