Official Sony NEX-VG10 Thread

[steventimothy]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's discuss this camera and its' specs without resorting to sniping and personal attacks.

Sorry, just saw your comment - hopefully my post is not too snipey.

I hope Sony reads the comments here - I'd like to see a camera like that work out. It wouldn't take much more... Here's how I hallucinate the meeting went between consumer camcorder division and professional division:

Consumer person: So we've got this great new camcorder that uses the same big sensor from our new mirrorless cameras. It's capitalizing on the new large sensor video trend. Canon is minting billions in the DSLR biz with that buzz.

Pro person: It uses removable lenses? Is it 24p? Because there's no !@#$ way we'll let you release a product like that, you'll kill our ENG - 2/3" market.

Consumer person: Um, OK. (secretly plans to keep BIOS open so that Vitaliy can hack it).

 

[hpmoon]

the "no jello vision in AVCHD" comment pretty much negates your relevance to the discussion anyway.

The entire known universe agrees in chorus that the "jello vision" factor is worse using Canon's HD video codecs for its jungle safari cameras than high-bitrate AVCHD such as that of Sony's new camcorder. I don't suppose you've ever chimed into the billions of other threads around here involving the persistent pleas of DSLR users for Canon to finally use a codec that isn't so five years ago.

 

[Rick Burnett]

The critical flaw in your argument is that - you must have forgotten - you are talking about halving the resolution of more the double the frames per second (i.e., 60) which interpolate to the equivalent of 30p. The squabbling about how that's imperfect is much ado about almost nothing. Get out there and make films, folks.

And what you are forgetting is that if something is moving across the image, that the object in that image will be in two locations when you combine the frames. So a square moving quickly looks something like this:


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Which looks horrible. Edit: Added the dots because it removed my blank lines ignore the dots!

 

[hpmoon]

Interlaced content is VERY hard and time consuming to work with. I used to shoot using a camera that only did interlaced and when I got a camera that could shoot progressive, I've never looked back.

Get Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 with the Mercury Playback Engine combined with CUDA GPU acceleration. It has left Final Cut Pro behind with the dinosaurs and it will make your concerns invisible.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

This feels rather like an exclusive club where opinions have coagulated into a group hug of BNC-connected, last-century shoulder-mount veterans...

 

[dbwolfe]

hpmoon. please just stop commenting. your perceived knowledge is incorrect and absurd.

"The critical flaw in your argument is that - you must have forgotten - you are talking about halving the resolution of more the double the frames per second (i.e., 60) which interpolate to the equivalent of 30p. The squabbling about how that's imperfect is much ado about almost nothing. Get out there and make films, folks."

really? and uh...

"The entire known universe agrees in chorus that the "jello vision" factor is worse using Canon's HD video codecs for its jungle safari cameras than high-bitrate AVCHD such as that of Sony's new camcorder. I don't suppose you've ever chimed into the billions of other threads around here involving the persistent pleas of DSLR users for Canon to finally use a codec that isn't so five years ago."

again, really? that has nothing to do with the codec and everything to do with the refresh rate of the canon sensor. I use a panasonic AVCHD camera and it most certainly exhibits skew.

 

[steventimothy]

on the contrary hpmoon, a bunch of "BNC-connected, last-century shoulder-mount veterans..." would actually welcome a 60i camera with open arms.

we're not trying to bully anyone, just stopping the spread of gross mis-information in it's tracks. the "no jello vision in AVCHD" comment pretty much negates your relevance to the discussion anyway.

and steventimothy, 60p, not 60i is the preferred format for sports, that's why ESPN and ABC chose 720p over 1080i, b/c both networks show a lot of sports.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tvlistings/espnhd/espnHDStory?id=1614556

end of transmission

My point was that sports is NOT shot at 24p.

 

[hpmoon]

And what you are forgetting is that if something is moving across the image, that the object in that image will be in two locations when you combine the frames. So a square moving quickly looks something like this:


######
........######
######
........######
######
........######

Which looks horrible. Edit: Added the dots because it removed my blank lines ignore the dots!

I just looked. Nope, didn't see it. (I am referring to highly complex, detailed footage shot in 1080i/60 AVCHD at 17 Mbps and rendered to 1080p/30 MPEG-2 Blu-Ray, played on a Dell Ultrasharp U2711 monitor.)

 

[Rick Burnett]

The entire known universe agrees in chorus that the "jello vision" factor is worse using Canon's HD video codecs for its jungle safari cameras than high-bitrate AVCHD such as that of Sony's new camcorder. I don't suppose you've ever chimed into the billions of other threads around here involving the persistent pleas of DSLR users for Canon to finally use a codec that isn't so five years ago.

Really? then post some links.

Jello has NOTHING to do with the codec. Jello is caused by the fact that the lines of the sensor are read out in series and that any movement in the image will be read at different times, causing skew in horizontal movements or expansion or compression in vertical movements.

I have three Canon video recording devices. Even if I could get raw out of the camera the jello would still be there.

And, as a matter of fact, there are people who record the HDMI output out of the camera of the 7D which completely circumvents the codec and guess what, still jello

 

[Noel Evans]

I just want to say people should re-read Stephens post above.

Please keep in mind that peoples opinion of this camera are how it relates to them and their perspective. One mans can of sardines is another mans caviar.

But for me this camera offers nothing I want except one thing. Form factor. I cant stand DSLR form factor. But thats not enough for me to even consider it as it lacks way too much to be able to cover the territory Id need it to. Nonetheless, this camera will be a huge hit with some markets Id suspect. One of which I can name are the retirees in Japan, they love this sort of gear and variable frame rates and audio limitations dont even come up on their radar (good market as they usually have $ as well).

 

[Steve Castle]

Still photographers rightly see FF as a benefit, but for motion video, FF's typically extreme narrow DOF makes pulling focus a daunting challenge during a take. And a follow-focus rig only makes this job slightly easier, not easy. Big difference.

Also, compared to the most common 35mm motion picture format, the m4/3 crop factor is closer to 1.18, not 2.0x. See:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2005971&postcount=105

If you're shooting motion video, the above points are important.

This new Sony handycam offers nothing to prosumer & pro motion video shooters that a T2i, GH1 or 7D can't do better & less expensively, except the Sony has a built-in headphone jack. Use an external audio recorder with a DSLR to address that issue, and don't shoot $%#@&* interlaced video unless your client pays you extra to do it. ;-)

An 2X crop sensor size is fine for DOF, but my comments are directed in the context of use of lenses via adapter, the fact is that rangefinder & SLR lenses have been designed primarily for APS-C & FF.

If you mount a common 50mm lens to a m43 camera you have a FOV of a 100mm lens; 24mm gets you a 48mm lens, etc. This can be problematic and does limit your choices. APS-C offers the best flexibility and selection relative to these short FFD mounts. Supposedly, the E-mount can also fit a FF sensor, so there seems to be a good amount of room for expansion.

But let's be honest, I'd agree that being interlaced is a critical flaw, but at the same time the T2i, GH1, and 7D have their own sets of flaws. The 5DII was also released without 24p, but was added later. Hopefully, Sony will wise up before its release this Fall.


....but


The comments and negativity here is far off base. Aside from the interlace issue, how do we know that this no better then a T2i, GH1, or 7D? That issues like aliasing, rolling-shutter, etc aren't better?

We haven't seen any footage outside the promo vid; which look great. Should we expect this to be just an over-sized NEX5 with a nicer mic? And should we expect the AG100 to be $5,000 version of the GH1 with extra features like uncompressed HDMI out? Panasonic says that there is a lot they can do with dedicated camcorder even if it shares a sensor from the GH1, especially in reference to aliasing, which will justify the price.

The fact is we haven't seen what this camera can do, this will be first camera that we'll see that uses a dSLR sensor that will be in a dedicated camcorder. And again, which is the reason why the interlace-only is so disappointing.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I just looked. Nope, didn't see it. (I am referring to highly complex, detailed footage shot in 1080i/60 AVCHD at 17 Mbps and rendered to 1080p/30 MPEG-2 Blu-Ray, played on a Dell Ultrasharp U2711 monitor.)

It has nothing to do with how complex the image is. It has to do with how fast an object is tracking past the screen. It is so noticeable to me, it's how I know something was interlaced and converted to progressive.

 

[agcohn]

I think 60p is far more useful then 24p. 99.9% of the projects will have web and/or DVD distribution, so 60p makes more sense then 24. Anyway- I think 24p looks jittery with any motion. I don't undestand why people are so stuck on this 24p rate anyway. News in the 50's and 60's were shot on 16mm and I don't see anyone demanding shooting news in 24p on 16mm. times change- get on with it.

I have found the exact opposite to be true.

24p can be made to play perfectly at 60i with pull-down.
24p can be conformed to PAL extremely easily with a minor pitch shift in the audio.

While...

60i to 24p looks like garbage.
60i to PAL looks like garbage. (and considering how PAL is over half the world, this is a major issue)

24p is the most flexible video format by far.

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

This feels rather like an exclusive club where opinions have coagulated into a group hug of BNC-connected, last-century shoulder-mount veterans...

You don't actually believe being limited to, and paying extra for, interlaced video is cutting-edge or even desirable in 2010, do you? Really?

 

[Blaine]

there are twelve-year-olds shooting far more compelling art than anyone at dvxuser.com.

Perhaps you could post some of that "compelling art" because I've seen some incredible stuff from some of the members here. It's easy to make bold statements if you don't have to back them up.

 

[steventimothy]

Let's give the benefit of the doubt and say that 60i is an A-OK format and is better than 24p.

So still, why would Sony leave 24p out? Why would they exclude this format? It's trivially easy to put it in. It's a more economical format for the web, that's indisputable, if you're concerned about bandwidth & filesizes & whatnot. The individual frame quality at a give data rate is higher at 24p than 60i, that's indisputable. (Please don't make me divide a number by 24 or 30 to prove it.)

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Perhaps you could post some of that "compelling art" because I've seen some incredible stuff from some of the members here. It's easy to make bold statements if you don't have to back them up.

Hi Blaine: What I want to know is how, as a 12-year-old, you've managed to make >9K posts here in your lifetime. I mean, that's like what 1 every 10 minutes or something?

 

[steventimothy]

Judge for yourself in {1080-not-stuttery-24p} at Vimeo: http://vimeo.com/13323632

I'll enjoy coming back to this thread after the camera is out, the reviews come in, and people start using it. Until then, I am so out of here - what a waste of an afternoon.

Come on back anytime, just don't forget to take your meds next time.

Sorry, was that snipey? As a talentless hack, I can't really tell.

 

[Noel Evans]

Cleaning up this thread a little.

 

[e-steve]

Perhaps some people have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today...