Off to Cambodia..worth upgrading from a 60D?

[ROCKMORE]

Thanks Michael...so you think the kit lens is fine?

I see there is a premium lens available....but that makes the price considerably more expensive....which would start making me think about the C100...(given I already have a very nice 24-70 Tamron 2.8 IS lens)...

The 16-50 3.5-5.6 is a kit lens for sure, but from what I've seen is not bad for $200 if that's your budget. here are a few tests I found.
http://www.webrene.com/2014/07/samsung-nx-16-50mm-vs-18-55mm-vs-20-50mm-2/
https://www.wimarys.com/16-50mm-f3-5-5-6-for-samsung-nx-review/

The 16-50 f2-2.8 is a much better lens but more expensive and heavier for travel. In your case you will be in Cambodia which is an unpredictable environment where you need to carry and mind your gear all the time probably even to the toilet on occasion so small may be a benefit.

This is all very subjective and up to the shooter.

The C100 is a tested and proven camera, but I personally wouldn't advise buying a discontinued camera. There is a reason the prices are slashed because it's on the way out to clear the shelves for newer technology. A year ago people said "4K is years away" now it is here on a phone.
Canon won't release 4K in anything in this price range ever, well someday maybe. You wait a short time and all original files will be 4K or looked down on by clients because the first question is, "what camera did you use."
So a shooter archiving potentially timeless footage from Cambodia unquestionably should be acquiring it in 4K.
A few years from now that footage will still be current enough to sell, but not if it's a lessor format. Imagine trying to sell SD today, it's dead and 2K will be soon.

Here are a few of today's options for cameras in the same price range but the big difference it the URSA shoots 60fps raw or 30fps with the global shutter/ The Canon old version fps max 1080p @ 30fps but the new one does shoot 1080p @ 60fps. Wow.
$3,000 Canon C-100 old version
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889545-REG/Canon_EOS_C100_EF_Cinema.html
$3,000 The Ursa Mini old 4K sensor $3,000
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...inecamursam40k_ef_ursa_4k_digital_cinema.html

$5,500 Canon C-100 new version
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086125-REG/canon_eos_c100_cinema_eos.html
$5,000 Ursa Mini new 4.6K http:
//www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1137310-REG/blackmagic_design_cinecamursam46k_ef_ursa_mini_4_6k_digital.html

The suggestion of the Lumix LX 100 would be more interesting because its really cheap and least it is moving into 4K. I would be tempted to get one of those today. The only problem with the LX100 is it looks like it can't switch from NTSC to PAl. 60hrz and 50hrz switchable are vital to keeping local lighting from flickering. I wasn't thinking and just shot some slowmotion at 60fps NTSC outside. When I walked into a building in a 50hrz area I forgot to change to 50fps pal and sure enough the flickering footage is "Unusable" and trashed. Watch out for cameras that are dedicated to one region when traveling from NTSC to PAL. I'm pretty sure Cambodia is PAL as all the neighboring countries in the region.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082158-REG/panasonic_lumix_dmc_lx100_digital_camera.html

There actually isn't a "bad" choice these days, just better ones. In the end you will have to sort through all the choices yourself from your own research.

 

[Andrius Simutis]

We tend to forget that beast. 2999$ for a C100 is a GREAT camera. One of the best images and all-in-one solutions there is, just lacks slowmotion at that range.

How many times must we debunk this claim? There is slow-motion on the C100, it's just a little more involved. Shoot 60i, import to 24p timeline, slow to 40%, looks great.

 

[ROCKMORE]

How many times must we debunk this claim? There is slow-motion on the C100, it's just a little more involved. Shoot 60i, import to 24p timeline, slow to 40%, looks great.

It shoots 1080p @60i, but that is so far behind whats available now. Most cameras half the price already have 60fps at 1080p and with an NX1 half the price including 4K up to 30fps and 1080 up to 120fps.

You can spend $3,000 on a camera that shoots 1920x1080P H-264 60i or a camera that shoots 4000x2160 raw 60fps for the same $3,000. Even a $499 GoPro 4 shoots 3840x2160 24p/25p/30p. plus 1080 60p.


These days you can get a slice of cake from many manufacturers for the same price as crumbs from Canon.
Canon spends billions investing in new companies because of it's market share losses in businesses like consumer DSLRs due to stingy practices. 5 years ago Canon ranked top of the list in the consumer DSLR market today lags near the bottom of the list.
Here are a few interesting articles what's been happening with Canon and why I personally won't invest in Canon anymore.
http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/market-dslrs-shrinking-dramatically-canon-nikon-blame/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/10/us-axis-canon-idUSKBN0LE0KK20150210

 

[simonpwood]

Does the company actually require 4K footage?
Are you happy with the images from the 60D and does it work for you with your other projects?

If so just stick with what you know, and use the 60D. No point buying new gear unless you actually need it.

Maybe look at getting a faster prime lens (for in the dark) and a variable Nd filter (for in the sun), plus some sort of basic support if you need it?

I recently got a Edelkrone Pocket rig which is handy for travelling, especially when space & weight is limited, see my quick review here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?336403-Edelkrone-Pocket-Rig*-2

*Edit* Ok I see that you already have a 50mm 1.8 prime, so thats covered already.

 

[ROCKMORE]

Does the company actually require 4K footage?
Are you happy with the images from the 60D and does it work for you with your other projects?

If so just stick with what you know, and use the 60D. No point buying new gear unless you actually need it.

It depends if he's planning to try and sell his project in the future. If shot with a 60D great for home movies, or youtube samples, but if he ever wants it to be sold as stock footage or a future broadcast doc. it may not fly. He's traveling to the other side of the planet and should have a 4K capable camera to acquire footage that will be usable for the next few years.
I have a 60D and a 600D and oddly enough my racing client wants me to continue using them because they edit on site and have to upload the films daily to Youtube. They don't understand cameras, only formula race cars. I offered to shoot 4K but in this case they don't want the trouble.

 

[simonpwood]

It depends if he's planning to try and sell his project in the future. If shot with a 60D great for home movies, or youtube samples, but if he ever wants it to be sold as stock footage or a future broadcast doc. it may not fly.

I hear you, but I thought he was just doing some work for an Aid company, not doing stock footage. Probably won't have the time if he's working etc.

Slightly off topic; I saw the new Mad Max movie on a big screen, and noticed there were very slight changes in some of the POV shots (they held up very well I have to say, but you could note a slight change side by side). So I tried to see what cameras they used, and sure enough the B cameras were old 5dMk2s. There are some cool photos from the set here:
http://imgur.com/a/gOOs4#XUc2api

Looks like they were using basic 'push-pull' rigs for stability.

Reason for this is that in this day and age, the old Canons still hold up. The rest of the movie was shot on Alexa's at 2K, and it looked amazing. So, I just wonder about the need for 4K for small company promos that may be released on the web, when epic action movies are still being finished in HD or 2K for cinema release?

 

[ROCKMORE]

I hear you, but I thought he was just doing some work for an Aid company, not doing stock footage. Probably won't have the time if he's working etc.

Reason for this is that in this day and age, the old Canons still hold up.
So, I just wonder about the need for 4K for small company promos that may be released on the web, when epic action movies are still being finished in HD or 2K for cinema release?

I agree that the Canon picture still looks great. My AsiaCupSeries formula racing client is very happy with the material and just booked me for 3 events in June July Aug using the same tired old cameras even when I offered to shoot 4K with the NX1 at my own expense, so it's proof they still bring home the bacon. I shot 2 broadcast TV commercials with 5DIII last year and it all looks great...........,
but we are moving forward into the next generation of image capturing cameras. I don't even have an NX1 yet so I can't say personally, but what I've seen looks amazing and they are available now for very little money.
The cost and time of travel is huge and the opportunity to capture moments only comes once when it is in front of your camera. If these 4K cameras were still $20,000 and weighed 20 pounds I may say it's not worth it, but when you can order from B&H today, go half way around the world tomorrow, shoot your project and be back home before the visa bill arrives in your mailbox, and even sell the NX1 on E-bay to get most of your money back before the bill is due, I say go for it. That's the speed of the world we live in today. Don't wait till next year to capture today's moment, because it will be gone.

 

[photochris]

I hear you, but I thought he was just doing some work for an Aid company, not doing stock footage. Probably won't have the time if he's working etc.

Slightly off topic; I saw the new Mad Max movie on a big screen, and noticed there were very slight changes in some of the POV shots (they held up very well I have to say, but you could note a slight change side by side). So I tried to see what cameras they used, and sure enough the B cameras were old 5dMk2s. There are some cool photos from the set here:
http://imgur.com/a/gOOs4#XUc2api

Looks like they were using basic 'push-pull' rigs for stability.

Reason for this is that in this day and age, the old Canons still hold up. The rest of the movie was shot on Alexa's at 2K, and it looked amazing. So, I just wonder about the need for 4K for small company promos that may be released on the web, when epic action movies are still being finished in HD or 2K for cinema release?

That's pretty cool. Interesting to see in one of the shots - looks like the camera op is using glasses to monitor while he holds the camera off the side a vehicle. The rest wearing ski goggles and other protection from all the dust, ugh, that shoot must have been hell on the cameras and crew. Though with a budget like Mad Max, 5d's are small potatoes.

 

[Scott F]

Reason for this is that in this day and age, the old Canons still hold up. The rest of the movie was shot on Alexa's at 2K, and it looked amazing. So, I just wonder about the need for 4K for small company promos that may be released on the web, when epic action movies are still being finished in HD or 2K for cinema release?

:thumbsup:

 

[Mavoz]

Thanks for all the replies everyone...really appreciate your time and all the information and discussion.

In many ways the 4K is certainly overkill...the aid organisation is not exactly big budget...and the footage they've used in other years has been little better than SD and a mixture of videos with a 'PowerPoint' or 'Photostory' like feel..so a 60D in many ways would certainly do the job.

On the other hand...I'm an enthusiast...this is an enjoyable hobby...and I want to do the most 'professional' job I can for them...I also don't want to muck up the opportunity to capture some great footage...the more I read reviews on the NX1 the more it impresses me.

The advantages that swing the argument for me are:

* A high quality image
* 4K allows editing in 1080p and cropping and panning options
* I get the impression the ergonomics and useability of the camera are just going to be nicer and easier to use than my 60D...(not sure why...just a hunch!!)
* The NX1 is lightweight and discreet...(a C100 is going to draw more attention to itself)
* The timelapse options seems easy and low fuss...also seems to do a great job...see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Salzg-S46rI
* My 60D currently 'cuts out' occasionally when I first start recording...which leads to missing shots...
* It has an inbuilt viewfinder...my current loupe gets knocked off...
* 2K is a fair bit of money...but it isn't a ridiculous amount of money to provide 2 cameras versus one.
* The auto focus actually might be useful when just quickly trying to get the shot.
* The 60D will provide great B roll footage...especially if I get my assistant camera op to focus on it's strengths...close up....bokeh/blurred background cinematic look with the 1.8 or Tamron 2.8
* H265 is space efficient
* Don't think I'll be back in Cambodia again in a hurry!

Now the last piece of the puzzle is to convince my good wife that such an investment is worthwhile!!

 

[ROCKMORE]

Now the last piece of the puzzle is to convince my good wife that such an investment is worthwhile!!

A lot of comments are about this project and what is necessary to satisfy the needs of a low budget project, but this can lead to other opportunities. It's up to you to decide where you want to be in your future. One other big advantage of shooting in 4K will be the ability to use still frames from all the video. Anything that makes your project better will lead to new projects. Good luck!

For the investment you can actually buy it and sell it when you return. It's a hot item and would sell on Ebay.

 

[Mavoz]

A lot of comments are about this project and what is necessary to satisfy the needs of a low budget project, but this can lead to other opportunities. It's up to you to decide where you want to be in your future. One other big advantage of shooting in 4K will be the ability to use still frames from all the video. Anything that makes your project better will lead to new projects. Good luck!

For the investment you can actually buy it and sell it when you return. It's a hot item and would sell on Ebay.

Thanks Michael...I certainly plan to keep this gear and continue to use it...always working on various projects on the side from my regular teaching job....

One challenge is what lenses for the NX1. (can actually see this is a negative going away from Canon)

My current lenses include:

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD
Canopn 70-200 f/4 L
50 1.8 Prime
Canon 10-22mm EFS (Can't adapt this to the Samsung)

With an adaptor like the Fotodiox it gives me some use of these but I will need a good main zoom....just debating between the cheap 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 ED OIS Lens and the 16-50mm f/2-2.8 S ED OIS Lens...does add another $1000 to the price for the better lens though...

Others recommend the Rokinon lenses...so many choices!

 

[photochris]

You have some great canon glass, no AF or IS with Samsung since you're limited to a dumb adapter. While I own and love the NX1, having two cameras that can take full advantage of your lens capabilities would be more of a priority to me. I would get another Canon or something from Sony or M43 that can take an electronic adapter. Then you have a fully compatible backup. If you get the 16-50s, that's basically another version of your Tamron 24-70, why buy and carry two versions of the same lens? Just my .02.

 

[Mavoz]

You have some great canon glass, no AF or IS with Samsung since you're limited to a dumb adapter. While I own and love the NX1, having two cameras that can take full advantage of your lens capabilities would be more of a priority to me. I would get another Canon or something from Sony or M43 that can take an electronic adapter. Then you have a fully compatible backup. If you get the 16-50s, that's basically another version of your Tamron 24-70, why buy and carry two versions of the same lens? Just my .02.

Thanks 'PhotoChris'.....Great points....I do already have a good investment in Canon glass....but at the moment I just focus manually anyway when it comes to video with My 60D....(autofocus on this is not an option) so couldn't I do this also with the NX1 + adaptor?

Am I correct in my thinking though it is really useful to have 2 cameras? My 60D will make a good B camera....so all those lenses are still relevant.

In addition the 70-200mm L and 50 1.8 have no IS anyway....all I lose over my current setup....is the ability to easily change the aperture...

Using the 50 1.8 on the Samsung should still give reasonable 'bokeh' like opportunities shouldn't it?

The advantage I see with the NX1 is very impressive auto focus that even trumps the GH4....

This video makes a strong argument for the NX1's autofocus...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DigAgYD-QY

While I appreciate the professional method is pulling focus....maybe there is a case for just sometimes quickly getting the shot...

Anyway thanks again for the opinions...I even still wonder whether I should save money and just keep the 60D ...but do think there could be merit in actually having 2 cameras...especially when my wife has a reasonably good eye....and is open to being trained....

Anyway this is the latest version of our 'field' package:

Camera op 1: Samsung NX1 + 16-50MM F/2-2.8 S ED OIS ZOOM LENS + Fotodiox Pro Lens Mount Adapter + some form of ND filter...Lightcraft?
Used for General purpose footage, landscapes, timelapse, 4K that can be cropped and panned.

Camera op 2: 60D with Tamron 24-70 VI + Variable ND filter. B roll footage + backup + Magic Lantern for help with focus peaking etc.
(Reserve lenses for use with either Samsung or Canon mount: Canon 70-200 f/4 L + 50 1.8 Prime + Canon 10-22mm EFS)

Audio: Train an operator with Zoom H4n audio recorder + headphones + Rode NTG2 microphone + existing wired DPA 4061 lapel mic...particularly for Interview audio.

Extras:

Laptop + portable HD for file backups etc.

1 x Tripod, 1 x Monopod, 1 x Konova Slider.

Hope that should give good coverage. Thanks for any thoughts! (All the posts so far have been incredibly helpful and greatly appreciated....thanks so much!)

 

[photochris]

I wouldn't give up aperture control, and if you're shooting adapted Canon lenses on the NX1, you'll also lose IS. You're also left trying to control exposure with a ND filter. Honestly, I'd get a gently used 5d2 (which can easily be found for under $1000) or a 5d3 (which are now selling used for under $2000) - either one will be easier to match in post than the NX1/60d and they use the same batteries as your 60d - so you bring 10 batteries and a couple chargers for redundancy and you're good. If you go the NX1 route you're bringing two separate kits with regard to all the small bits.

If you want AF when shooting video, the 70d has the Dual-Pixel AF, which is every bit as good as the NX1's video AF. For less than the NX1 + 16-50s you can get a 70d body and a used 5d2 and just leave a lens permanently attached to each. OR you can get a second Canon body and something like the Panasonic LX100 or FZ1000 for 4k shots. Watch some 70d AF videos, dual pixel is awesome. AF - if you're shooting stills - will be much better with Canon vs. the NX1. The NX1 struggles to lock with low light/low contrast scenarios that aren't very challenging for a DSLR. It also has a tough time when your subject has a strong backlight, for some reason it really has a hard time locking on or it "locks" but when you review the shot its soft. It also randomly freezes, requiring you to remove the battery and reboot the camera. This has been discussed a lot in the forums.

I don't see any lighting listed in your kit either. You're doing interviews, how are you going to light your subjects? A small light and a cheap foldable reflector will really help in that regard.

Sorry to confuse the issue for you, but I've traveled in South America - spending time in small town hotels and such with limited power options - like one functioning outlet in the room and sometimes none forcing me to charge batteries in a hallway or something like that. Carrying lots of gear while trying to stay as small as possible is challenging - and little things like the batteries and lens compatibility makes life a lot easier. Battery life is also much, much better with Canon because its not powering a EVF and LCD at the same time. I shot a training video on Friday with the NX1 and my D750, it was a 2-hour shoot. I shot 55 minutes of footage with the NX1 and 68 min with the D750. I ran both my NX1 batteries dry in that time, the single D750 battery I used still shows 40%.

There are a few "firmware update request" threads on Dpreview that give you an idea of all the nits people have with the camera. Outside of the AF frustrations and the freezing, it doesn't have a permanent video mode. You either assign a custom button or push right on the rear control wheel to enter video mode, if you touch the shutter it goes back into stills mode. If you shut off the camera to preserve power, its in stills mode when you turn it back on. It can be frustrating because the only way to stretch battery life is to turn the camera off, but that adds an extra step in the process. Focus by wire means you have to refocus every time you switch the camera on too.

I don't mean to make the NX1 sound so bad, because its a really great camera that's capable of producing some really special images. It just needs a little more refinement. Its a great overall package, the best mirrorless camera available at the moment in my opinon. The 16-50s lens is a great standard zoom and it takes great stills.

Also, no GoPro? Small, light, great for anything around water, POV shots, timelapses and so on.

Chris

 

[Mavoz]

I wouldn't give up aperture control, and if you're shooting adapted Canon lenses on the NX1, you'll also lose IS. You're also left trying to control exposure with a ND filter. Honestly, I'd get a gently used 5d2 (which can easily be found for under $1000) or a 5d3 (which are now selling used for under $2000) - either one will be easier to match in post than the NX1/60d and they use the same batteries as your 60d - so you bring 10 batteries and a couple chargers for redundancy and you're good. If you go the NX1 route you're bringing two separate kits with regard to all the small bits.
....
Also, no GoPro? Small, light, great for anything around water, POV shots, timelapses and so on.

Chris

Thanks Chris..you've given me a lot to think about there! I do have variable ND filter that actually does a pretty good job with exposure....but still you make great points...convenience of one battery type and also one lens type does make a strong argument for a camera like the 70D...

you know when I bought Canon years ago I figured that they and Nikon would always be the two big players in town...some of the footage coming out of the NX1 does look amazing though.

I do have a Drift Ghost HD cam for an action cam...so will probably use that.

Thanks for the food for thought!

 

[photochris]

No problem. Sounds like a great project, hope to see footage/stills on the other side.

 

[deadhumpy]

I've been using the nx1 for a while now. It gotta say it's a amazing little camera for both video and stills. I have the 16-50 S lens and I would highly recommend it. The auto focus works really well but I think the image stabilization is more important if your going to be shooting hand held 4k video. I think the only way you can use the long canon telephoto would be on a tripod or shooting hd instead of 4k. They do have adapters that control aperture, I have a couple for my nikon lenses. If I were you I would buy a used nx1 body, probably around $1k right now along with a canon adapter for your current lenses and then I would buy the samsung primes 30mm 45mm. Also I would look into a small portable handheld rig if you want to shoot 4k video. This kit would be around $1,500 and you would have lots of options for different kind of shooting. IF you think your going to be doing a lot of hand held 4k, the samsung power zoom 16-50 can be bought used for about $100. It's a nice lens for video although a little soft for still images. Also I have the slr magic nd filter and I like it a lot. Anyway this is what I would do. I think for the amount of money you get a lot more with the samsung body and you can keep your canon lenses.

 

[ROCKMORE]

Thanks Michael...I certainly plan to keep this gear and continue to use it...always working on various projects on the side from my regular teaching job....

One challenge is what lenses for the NX1. (can actually see this is a negative going away from Canon)

My current lenses include:

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD
Canopn 70-200 f/4 L
50 1.8 Prime
Canon 10-22mm EFS (Can't adapt this to the Samsung)

With an adaptor like the Fotodiox it gives me some use of these but I will need a good main zoom....just debating between the cheap 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 ED OIS Lens and the 16-50mm f/2-2.8 S ED OIS Lens...does add another $1000 to the price for the better lens though...

Others recommend the Rokinon lenses...so many choices!

With what you have there is no doubt you can shoot a great film and save money in the short run. If you go that route you don't have to do anything except get on the plane.
If you plan to move forward to 4K the other choice would be to E-bay the 60D asap before it looses all it's value and all the lenses for exception of the 70-200 f4L . Take the money and buy the NX1 with the 16-50 f2.0/2.8 the Samyung 10mm f2.8 ED and the Fotodiox aperture adapter. This setup will be the most resolution you can get and ultra fast and flexible auto focus with your primary 16-50 2.0/2.8. weather sealed. Canon's sharpest zoom, but manual ( I have that lens and would be tough to part with ) and the 10mm Samyung which looks amazing.
Don't get too attached to modern lenses, they stop working sometimes. I bought the 50mm 1.8 and it stopped talking to the camera years ago and my wonderful Tamron 17-50 2.8 non VC suddenly has a aperture problem over 40mm in the zoom range where it just whites out. Still works well wider than 40mm but is basically a crash lens now.
If you add up your return on Ebay sales for your nice collection the switch shouldn't cost much. You might even make money.

Canon 10-22 sold
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=canon+10-22&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

Canon 60D sold
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...on+60D+body.TRS0&_nkw=canon+60d+body&_sacat=0

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD sold
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...w=Tamron+SP+24-70mm+F/2.8+Di+VC+USD+&_sacat=0

50 1.8 Prime sold
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...1.A0.H1.TRS0&_nkw=canon+50mm+1.8&_sacat=78997

Stay where you are or move forward, that choice only you can make.

 

[Mavoz]

Thanks 'Deadhumpy' and Michael,

appreciate all that....

At the end of the day all the contenders offer positives and negatives...a few brief examples...

Sony A7s - awesome low light..bokeh...lousy auto focus..no 4K without Shogun
GH4 - great all rounder
Canon 70D - uses exisitng lenses...but stuck with a loupe...and no 4K or same level of slow mo
Samsung NX1 - awesome image..but still a few challenges
Canon C100 - professional features built in like XLR inputs....just not as discrete or range of slow mo...+ a tad expensive...

(But it is worth remembering and being grateful for how far we've come....my first video camera experience as a kid was the big VHS cams in the 80's with the strap on VHS recorder over one shoulder!)

I think I'll go with the Samsung NX1 +16-50 2-2.8 lens.

Samsung seem like they are actually really supporting this cam...http://www.dpreview.com/articles/37...te-with-improvements-for-both-photo-and-video

Then my 60D for B cam...it still today does a great job..particularly when I get a nice tight shot with that 50 1.8 lens...great 'filmic' bokeh when combined with grading in post....

And then the cherry is the Samsung NX1 to hopefully get some beautiful scenery + general purpose footage mixed with slow mo and timelapses...

In a few years I can then consider retiring the 60D and the Samsung can get relegated to B camera status..and the Gh6 or the NX3 or the A7S iv can take the lead! (Or maybe Canon will even return to the fray!)

Thanks all...has actually been enjoyable reading all the various debates...hope some of it is useful to others also considering choices between all these cams...

Will aim to post back here when I return...