Off to Cambodia..worth upgrading from a 60D?

M

Mavoz

Well-known member
Hi,

I'm leaving for Cambodia in about 6 weeks as a volunteer to film promotional work for an Aid Organisation. (Footage will be interviews and on the ground welfare work in the field)
My conundrum is do I upgrade my camera from the Canon 60D + Tamron 24-70 that I have? And if so...which camera? (At present thinking Panasonic GH4 or Sony A7s on the radar)

Viewing all the various reviews of the newer cams does make one salivate.....but then I'm also a little bit over the whole 'You've got to keep upgrading to the newest and best'.

The debate I'm having:

Arguments For:
  • Getting another camera body would let me keep the 60D as a 'B Roll' camera that I can give to another team member.
  • Headphone socket/mic input options for newer cam avoids needing to always use my Zoom H4n for audio capture + Plural eyes audio sync work later
  • Quality of footage is 'better'...4K of the GH4 allows a bit of cropping options in post.
  • Newer cam may offer a few features that make accurate focus/exposure general capture easier?
  • Built in viewfinder is very handy
  • If a camera dies I have a backup other than my smartphone!


Arguments Against:
  • Needing the 'latest and greatest' is not always the answer...the creativity etc is more important than the difference in quality between a 60D and a newer cam.
  • I know my 60D quite well!
  • The 60D combined with Tamron lens + 50 1.8 lens still is a great tool. (albeit a little 'clumsy' at times)
  • It will cost me about $2500 + to upgrade to a newer cam and lens.
  • The GH4 and the A7Sii are coming in about 6 months...they will no doubt be awesome (but I'll be back from Cambodia!!)
Would love to hear from others on what you would do! Thanks.
 
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Considering "latest and greatest": The t2i already was enough for shooting great web video;)

For me upgrading to the C100 two years ago was 80% about ease of use/ergonomics:
ND, XLR, handle, side grip, assignable buttons, waveform, peaking, great battery life, later DPAF.
Doesn't magically make better pictures but makes shooting easier, helping you to make better pictures.
In short: I wouldn't have upgraded to "just" another DSLR, just for the sake of a better (in technical terms) picture.

Just my 2c :)

EDIT:
Thinking of the t2i got me nostalgic (normally thinking of the DVX does), but when having an attack of that "need-to-upgrate-now" feeling, I stop and watch this first:
Shot on the t2i.
Not saying it wouldn't look great shot on a GH4 :)
 
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The 60D does OK video for web. But of you're going on a trip, producing something exotic and needs to last, I would change the 60D for something better.

The only problems with the 60D is the Aliasing and moire, and general softness of the image, which makes me unable to use it for any wide shots, just close ups of people.

If moire and aliasing really bug you, then yes change.

And a tip, you don't need 2500$ to upgrade here. In fact newer cameras that are LESS expensive than the 60D don't have these image issues and would be a great upgrade.,

For example a Canon T6s or EOS m3 gives a great jump in IQ from the 60D and you can use your current lenses directly.
Another choice is a Nikon D5300 which gives much betterr video than 60D but you'd need to change lenses
There are also the mirrorless world like the Panasonic G6, which produces very sharp, detai
ed video and no aliasing and moire, and you can use your current lenses with an adapter on it

The weakness of the 60D is the aliasing and moire that appear on wide detailed shots, and would make filming a country landscape scene look absolutely hedious, so I would get a sharp cheap camera for that like a panasonic G6+kit lens, and shoot the interviews and closeups/lowlight shots on the 60D, which looks absolutely wonderful at these situations.
 
Footage will be interviews and on the ground welfare work in the field
Click to expand...

As someone who does similar work, I cannot stress enough a camera ready to capture GOOD AUDIO if you are a 1-man-band. I don't know camera choice in your range, but the C100 would be a good fit, especially if you have Canon glass already. (alright, 1 lens, but still.) Whatever you use, you are doing documentary work and you can't be futzing around in the field when someone is ready to give an interview.

Maybe rent something for the trip?
 
sorry to via slightly off topic but Ebrahim is there really a great jump in image quality? Have been going back & forth between the 750/760d and 70d (mainly for the af on a gimbal) and from samples Ive seen (admittedly compressed on vimeo & youtube) it is hard to see any improvement in the af capabilities or video quality (think the 70d has same sensor as 60d but could be wrong). Am really hoping the 750d is better as it would make it easier on the gimbal
 
Ad4all, it's better, much better video quality and marginally better stills quality.

The 60D has the old t2i 18mp sensor,

The 70D has a newer 20.2mp sensor with Dual Pixel AF, yet still had the same video quality as the 18mp one, the same resolution and the same bad moire and the same lowlight performance.

The 750D and 760D and EOS M3 have a newer 24mp sensor, and the video quality on this one is a big jump.

It s the first APS-C sensor from Canon with a better video quality than the ancient 550D, think of it as the next generation of video quality vs the 70D. The 70D however still has a higher end body which is stronger and has more photography features,

but the newer 750D in terms of vidro quality are a generation ahead, the image is much sharper, approaching the level of full 1080p, similar to the famously sharp GH3 and G6 and A6000. Aliasing and moire have been fixed so wide detailed shots look good, and there's a stop improvement on lowlight performance. All in all the new sensor is now on par or slightly better in video IW than the competetive D5300, A6000, GH3 and so on.

If one is into video I'd go for the newer generation rebel over a 70D simply because video quality on the 70D and 60D is a bit too soft and has hedious aliasing/moire, it's 2009 t2i standard (which is still fine for web for some arguablly). But if one is a hardcore photographer, the 70D might be a better option because of the more professional body, larger size, better build, larger VF, 1/8000 shutter, Top LCD, more photography buttons, just a higher end model in terms of body and the stills quality is not much different from the newer 24mp sensor apart from some resolution at 1:1 viewing, which also suggests that the increase in vidro quality is due to better processing (no line skipping, better noise reduction, better downscaling, etc) rather than a better sensor, but thag doesn't matter.
 
70D/60D/550D/600D/650D/700D/7DI/100D/1200D/eosm1/eosm2/5dII/

HBTapKZ.jpg


750D/760D/m3

GxHgoH6.jpg


From Andrew reid, both on neutral straight off the camera. As you can see the image is significantly better on the newer generation.
 
Thank you Ebrahim much appreciated think you've made my mind up for me, my main other worry was how the af face tracking will work in low light on a gimbal with the new af compared to dual pixel af but that's a minor concern. Apologies to the OP for the OT
 
Thanks for all the great replies here...really appreciate everyones thoughts and advice!

I'm really aware that it is so easy to be seduced by needing 'the next big thing' but also aware that this trip is a pretty unique opportunity (remote areas and very worthwhile cause)...

I really appreciate the point about ergonomics....XLR inputs....and the practical benefits..(thanks Scott F and Spartacus for those thoughts)

I'm really wrestling with what to do...(we're travelling with a team so I will be able to train a couple of assistants...)

  • Save money, just use 60D and handle audio with my Zoom H4n and a separate shotgun mic
  • Buy a second cam cheaper like the G6+ kit lens or a Canon 760 D as Ebrahim mentions (This is appealing because I could use my 50 1.8 for B Roll effects and use the 760D for my primary...(also is good to have a backup cam)
  • Buy a Gh4....or a Sony A7s...or a C100 (starting to get expensive though...but each of these does seem to offer unique benefits)
  • Take my older Panasonic HVX200 as a second cam....it does have XLR inputs...but this thing weighs a tonne, is not so discreet and space is limited for us.

Putting aside picture quality...are there any other practical benefits of a camera like the GH4 in just simply getting the shot?

eg.
  • Built in viewfinder versus placing on a loupe (that seems to get bumped off half the time for me!)
  • 4K capture which allows post cropping/pans etc. when editing at 1080
  • Headphone socket
  • Timelapse on the GH4 seems easy?

Thanks for any thoughts at all on any of the above!
 
Mavoz said:
Hi,

I'm leaving for Cambodia in about 6 weeks as a volunteer to film promotional work for an Aid Organisation. (Footage will be interviews and on the ground welfare work in the field)
My conundrum is do I upgrade my camera from the Canon 60D + Tamron 24-70 that I have? And if so...which camera? (At present thinking Panasonic GH4 or Sony A7s on the radar)

Viewing all the various reviews of the newer cams does make one salivate.....but then I'm also a little bit over the whole 'You've got to keep upgrading to the newest and best'.

The debate I'm having:

Arguments For:
  • Getting another camera body would let me keep the 60D as a 'B Roll' camera that I can give to another team member.
  • Headphone socket/mic input options for newer cam avoids needing to always use my Zoom H4n for audio capture + Plural eyes audio sync work later
  • Quality of footage is 'better'...4K of the GH4 allows a bit of cropping options in post.
  • Newer cam may offer a few features that make accurate focus/exposure general capture easier?
  • Built in viewfinder is very handy
  • If a camera dies I have a backup other than my smartphone!
Arguments Against:
  • Needing the 'latest and greatest' is not always the answer...the creativity etc is more important than the difference in quality between a 60D and a newer cam.
  • I know my 60D quite well!
  • The 60D combined with Tamron lens + 50 1.8 lens still is a great tool. (albeit a little 'clumsy' at times)
  • It will cost me about $2500 + to upgrade to a newer cam and lens.
  • The GH4 and the A7Sii are coming in about 6 months...they will no doubt be awesome (but I'll be back from Cambodia!!)
Would love to hear from others on what you would do! Thanks.
Click to expand...

I've been using Canon DSLRs since the first 5DII. All the films on my asiacupseries youtube channel were shot with a 60D and 600D.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN2alVIl1vsVwCagRQr9j9w
Although they work OK and I shot and uploaded 130 plus videos, the time has come and gone for the 60D and all video based Canon DSLRs. I'm getting an NX1 with the 16-50 2.0/2.8 but will also be able to use all my Canon lenses with a Fotodiox aperture control manual adapter for $79. I know the H-265 files need to be transcoded at the moment but that will be sorted out soon. The important thing to realize it that your Canon files are already poor quality compared to everything else out there. I'm from NYC but been traveling and living in SE Asis shooting since 1984 and I think your time spent here deserves more than 7 year old technology.
GH4 is also a great camera I've tested personally, I've just never been a M43 follower.
 
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ROCKMORE said:
I've been using Canon DSLRs since the first 5DII. All the films on my asiacupseries youtube channel were shot with a 60D and 600D.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN2alVIl1vsVwCagRQr9j9w
Although they work OK and I shot and uploaded 130 plus videos, the time has come and gone for the 60D and all video based Canon DSLRs. I'm getting an NX1 with the 16-50 2.0/2.8 but will also be able to use all my Canon lenses with a Fotodiox aperture control manual adapter for $79. I know the H-265 files need to be transcoded at the moment but that will be sorted out soon. The important thing to realize it that your Canon files are already poor quality compared to everything else out there. I'm from NYC but been traveling and living in SE Asis shooting since 1984 and I think your time spent here deserves more than 7 year old technology.
GH4 is also a great camera I've tested personally, I've just never been a M43 follower.
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael...NX1 sounds like a good option....that transcoding is a pain though..been there done that back in the day with MXF files...but hopefully Adobe (my current editor) deals with that...

This video makes a compelling argument for the NX1...autofocus for 'run and gun' may be very handy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DigAgYD-QY

Thanks!
 
Mavoz said:
Thanks Michael...NX1 sounds like a good option....that transcoding is a pain though..been there done that back in the day with MXF files...but hopefully Adobe (my current editor) deals with that...

This video makes a compelling argument for the NX1...autofocus for 'run and gun' may be very handy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DigAgYD-QY

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I really like this camera. I have never liked transcoding but actually did a lot in the early days of Canon H264 files to mjpeg with streanclip. When CS6 arrived I deleted all those proxy files. The same will happen with h265 soon. I found another transcde program today that claims to be faster. Don't waste your moment with the 60D. You have a chance to capture some amazing footage on your journey. I saw the fotodiox $79 aperture adapter so you can use all your Canon lenses. I would even opt for the NX500 if you can only get $699 and that includes a 16-50 kit lens. Don't miss your chance.
 
ROCKMORE said:
Don't waste your moment with the 60D. You have a chance to capture some amazing footage on your journey. I saw the fotodiox $79 aperture adapter so you can use all your Canon lenses. Don't miss your chance.
Click to expand...

Thnaks Michael...I think you've sold me!

Is this adaptor you mean?

https://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mo...ked-iris-canon-lens-to-samsung-nx-camera.html

Will there be many compromises using an adaptor like this? ie. I'll need to manually control both aperture and focus right?
 
Mavoz said:
Thnaks Michael...I think you've sold me!

Is this adaptor you mean?

https://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mo...ked-iris-canon-lens-to-samsung-nx-camera.html

Will there be many compromises using an adaptor like this? ie. I'll need to manually control both aperture and focus right?
Click to expand...

What this means is you will be able to use all your existing lenses from your 60D (not sure about eos "s" mount) with ability to control aperture manually with the adapter's iris. This will give you a manually controlled lens with manual focus but no auto features / exposure focus IS etc. There is talk about some vignetting with an Iris behind the lens as apposed to inside the lens elements but I think this would only be an issue on clear fields like a sky at worst. I would recommend getting at least one full auto Samsung lens like the 16-50 f 3.5/5.6 kit zoom as a daily driver for quick run and gun. At about $200 extra it's a no brainer.
These phase detection lenses are very fast auto focus and very exciting to experiment with compared to anything out. What got my attention was a test comparing the GH4 to the NX1 on a face detection follow focus. I think with the touch screen you may be able to do rack focus shots, but I have not tested them myself yet. Anybody? Class? anybody?
I was corrected by Samuel on the downside of the NX500 which would be too big of a compromise to save a few bucks.
So I will have to personally count out the NX500 and just get an NX1 to start which is very cheap for the production value in the current market of 4K gear.
The manual is now out for the Samsung NX500. This was the compact and relatively cheap camera with NX1 innards (same sensor and processor) that would shoot 4K on an APS-C sensor.

But,

1. The 4K is done by cropping the sensor. The NX1 samples the whole sensor. This means on the NX500 the crop mode is more than 2X35mm, as opposed to 1.5 on the NX1. Impossible to get wide angles with any OIS lenses, including the kit zoom. It is also unclear how good cropped mode is relative to full sampling.

2. The maximum bitrate for 4K is 40 Mbps (HEVC). That for the NX1 is 80 Mbps (HEVC).

3. There is no focus peaking in 4K mode!


And, of course, no evf or mic input, but we knew that.
 
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ROCKMORE said:
I would recommend getting at least one full auto Samsung lens like the 16-50 f 3.5/5.6 kit zoom as a daily driver for quick run and gun. At about $200 extra it's a no brainer..
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael...so you think the kit lens is fine?

I see there is a premium lens available....but that makes the price considerably more expensive....which would start making me think about the C100...(given I already have a very nice 24-70 Tamron 2.8 IS lens)...
 
If you're buying mainly for video, the NX500 has a lot of compromises. Most notably is the video crop factor - which works out to about 38mm FOV on the wide end when at 16mm on the lens. With no mic input and the crazy crop factor, I'd opt for the Panasonic LX100 over the NX500 - no transcoding required and a much faster lens to boot so you can keep your ISO down and reduce noise. As a stills camera the NX500 is not very responsive either, google issues with its small buffer and you'll see what I'm talking about. The LX100 covers the 24-75 range and its a 1.7-2.8 lens.

The NX1 is a different class of camera and has all the bells and whistles - but it'll cost you. To me its worth it for the mic/headphone inputs, EVF, 120fps in 1080p and no crop (outside of the standard APS-c sensor size) in 4k.

Just my opinion on all fronts.
 
I wouldn't get an nx500. it's a 2.7x crop in video mode, close to s16/1" sensor size. A deal breaker for me. Don't be fooled into thinking it has APS-C size sensor, that's only in stills mode. Switch to video, and you get a 2.7x crop and files that need transcoding. Two deal breakers. I'd much rather shoot on a similarly priced T6s APS-C 1080p camera that doesn't need transcoding and takes my Canon lenses
 
If you can afford it, go for the C100. Even a used one. Even if you have to sell it again when you get back.
Benefits:
XLR audio inputs and no need for another recorder and any synching in post. Sell your audio recorder!
ND filters built in. Quick and easy to change when going from indoors to outside.
Ergonomics. Purpose built for video so all the controls are there.
Very good battery life.

I can't imagine doing anything more than pickup shots on a DSLR anymore. If you're going to be shooting every day in a bunch of different locations, then setup time and the ability to get a good shot right away is going to be important. DSLR was ok when that was the only ​way to get a cinematic image for under the price of a small house, but these days there are better options.
 
Andrius Simutis said:
If you can afford it, go for the C100. Even a used one. Even if you have to sell it again when you get back.
Benefits:
XLR audio inputs and no need for another recorder and any synching in post. Sell your audio recorder!
ND filters built in. Quick and easy to change when going from indoors to outside.
Ergonomics. Purpose built for video so all the controls are there.
Very good battery life.

I can't imagine doing anything more than pickup shots on a DSLR anymore. If you're going to be shooting every day in a bunch of different locations, then setup time and the ability to get a good shot right away is going to be important. DSLR was ok when that was the only ​way to get a cinematic image for under the price of a small house, but these days there are better options.
Click to expand...

+1 The OG C100 is going for a song. (well, around 3K from B&H here in the states...sure there are some used deals to be found) I would pick that one up at the very least for the audio options & ND filters.
 
We tend to forget that beast. 2999$ for a C100 is a GREAT camera. One of the best images and all-in-one solutions there is, just lacks slowmotion at that range.
 
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