Odyssey7Q February 2014 Firmware Update

morgan_moore said:
Whats the score on 4k HDMI - will the 7q (ever) work with the new Sony?

Dont know if I have missed some chatter on this one?

S
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+1 for this, but in the past the O7Q HDMI has been said to not take 4K directly (perhaps different versions of HDMI). It would be nice to know whether that's a firmware limitation or, more likely, a hardware chipset one. I'd get an A7s in a heartbeat (as i need a new stills and was never a fan of the megapixel race). I would hope that some enterprising company could do a conversion box between the HDMI out and the O7Q. That would make me very happy.

cheers
Paul
 
The GH4 has the breakout box with SDIs in, so i would assume the recorder would work with that.

It's a shame there is no real transport for RAW over HDMI, perhaps it's possible as it's just data. It would be less of a load. But then the A7s has only been announced for a few hours, hasn't shipped, doesn't have a price and already i'm moaning about RAW support :) At least it has Slog2 which is a great bonus.

But yes, the O7Q and the A7s sounds like an ideal combination but somewhere there needs to be a conversion from HDMI to something recordable... Maybe Mitch can add something here about possibilities.

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
The GH4 has the breakout box with SDIs in, so i would assume the recorder would work with that.

It's a shame there is no real transport for RAW over HDMI, perhaps it's possible as it's just data. It would be less of a load. But then the A7s has only been announced for a few hours, hasn't shipped, doesn't have a price and already i'm moaning about RAW support :) At least it has Slog2 which is a great bonus.

But yes, the O7Q and the A7s sounds like an ideal combination but somewhere there needs to be a conversion from HDMI to something recordable... Maybe Mitch can add something here about possibilities.

cheers
Paul
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The A7 has only just been announced, right? So there is no guarantee when it will be released and no guarantee what feature set will be available on release. Although I've no doubt if it has got some odd form of HDMI kicking out some odd form of 4K then some enterprising company (like Black Magic Design) will swiftly release a converter box.
 
Stuart Keasley said:
If the client doesn't want to pay for the 7Q then they'll get AVCHD. To bring it along anyway sends a pretty clear message to the client ie plead poverty and get the bill as low as possible, they'll bring along all their toys anyway so production value will bd the same.

I've yet to have a client say no, end of the day, even with the extra for the 7Q it's a lot less than the cameras it can now compete with.
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I'm with Stuart on this one.

Although it very much depends upon the project and client. Some projects you want to look the best because they'll elevate your reel - in this case you throw everything you can at it (irrespective of the budget). Some clients throw you a lot of work and they get to call in favours and or/you want to show off your new toy to them (so they'll pay for it in future). In both cases you might want to let it slide.

However, in general, if you've invested in the kit, it needs to pay for itself one way or another. At the end of the day, if it is making your work better, you should charge more for your work (because it is better than the competition) - whether you do that by charging for the 'magic' bit of kit, or simply raising your day rate is up to you.

What you don't want to do is get into a race to the bottom on rates, as it's a race you can't win: there'll always be some new kid straight out of college that's invested in the new budget bit of kit (or even the new high end) that's willing to work for peanuts to 'build up a reel' - and you'll never be able to compete with them on a cost basis. At the end of the day, some clients don't care about quality, just cost. You don't want those clients...

Also, I would point out, we're not really competing with the Black magic / GH4 crowd. Because no-one is asking for 4K - and that's pretty much their only 'go to feature' and anyone that is asking for 4K wants quality 4K and neither camera can deliver that. The GH4 is 8bit 420 and the BMCC is hobbled with dodgy firmware leading to crappy images and, even when that's sorted, a base ISO of 320 and 12 stops of DR - so we beat them on quality (at both 4K and HD I'd say). We also beat them on versatility, thanks to the fast chip and slow mo capabilities.

You could argue we're competing with the BMCC on a cost/basic shooting quality basis where, for most situations the quality will be about comparable. On this basis we lose and for 'in the know' clients that are quite cost conscious, we'll feel the pinch as the Black Magic is about half the price of the FS700/O7Q. However, we're also competing on a quality/versatility basis with the F5/Red crowd and clients who won't consider the BMCC (because it's too low end, has problems etc) - and there we get them beat on price, so they feel the pinch!

At the end of the day, a lot of it comes down to reputation. If the BMCC or GH4 get a good reputation as cameras that 'produce nice images' clients will want them. Currently I doubt they'll develop that reputations. To a certain extent FS700 doesn't have it either (it's rep is the 'budget slow mo camera'), at the moment the dominant player is still the C300. But with the O7Q I can see that changing.

So, yeah. Find your market niche and charge appropriately. Hell, charge as much as you can get away with.
 
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Stuart Keasley said:
If the client doesn't want to pay for the 7Q then they'll get AVCHD. To bring it along anyway sends a pretty clear message to the client ie plead poverty and get the bill as low as possible, they'll bring along all their toys anyway so production value will bd the same.

I've yet to have a client say no, end of the day, even with the extra for the 7Q it's a lot less than the cameras it can now compete with.
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I have no final answer for this. It's no question that you have to quote extra for 4K and especially for 4K RAW due to much higher work load. But supplying AVCHD instead of 4K2HD means the same effort but less quality. I am struggling with supplying less quality if it's easy to supply better results. Charging extra is difficult imho as it will lead to a scenario that some clients will ask for lower price and pretend accepting lower quality but in the end it's your good reputation which could crumble.
Yes, off course charge for your quality. Charge more for better quality.
 
Clermond said:
I have no final answer for this. It's no question that you have to quote extra for 4K and especially for 4K RAW due to much higher work load. But supplying AVCHD instead of 4K2HD means the same effort but less quality. I am struggling with supplying less quality if it's easy to supply better results. Charging extra is difficult imho as it will lead to a scenario that some clients will ask for lower price and pretend accepting lower quality but in the end it's your good reputation which could crumble.
Yes, off course charge for your quality. Charge more for better quality.
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Surely you've been delivering AVCHD up until this point, and they're happy with it? In many situations the 4K2HD won't give you much better results than that (e.g. controlled lighting) - at least not anything they'll notice. Many won't want to deal with the larger files sizes and the extra headache of grading Slog2.

I don't see why your reputation would crumble if you carry on producing work of good quality in AVCHD - the only thing that can happen is you're reputation builds because you start producing work that is even better (thanks to Slog2, 422 HD - and having a decent monitor to work off!)

The only real onus on you then is to educate them that in certain situations you'll need tool X (the O7Q, a 2.5K HMI, A nice prime lens, or whatever) to produce something of quality Y. It's then up to them to decide if they want to pay the extra to make the difference.

But, at the end of the day, it's more about charging the right amount for a certain level of quality. If you're better than the other guys in your market (perhaps in part because of the O7Q) then you should be able to charge more than them. If the client doesn't want to pay more for you, tell them to go use the other guys. And you say it's 'easy to produce better' - but it's not! It's easy for you because you just shelled out €3k for a decent monitor/recorder. Earning that €3K wasn't easy (I bet!). It's not about charging more for the right bit of kit, it's about not selling yourself short!

The most important lesson you can learn as a film maker is to say "sorry, but I'm worth more than that."
 
Clermond said:
I have no final answer for this. It's no question that you have to quote extra for 4K and especially for 4K RAW due to much higher work load. But supplying AVCHD instead of 4K2HD means the same effort but less quality. I am struggling with supplying less quality if it's easy to supply better results. Charging extra is difficult imho as it will lead to a scenario that some clients will ask for lower price and pretend accepting lower quality but in the end it's your good reputation which could crumble.
Yes, off course charge for your quality. Charge more for better quality.
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They're not just paying for higher quality, or even the effort required, whenever a piece of kit get used it takes a hit in wear and tear.

For me, any kit purchase is an investment, the investment needs to be paid back during it's useful lifespan, with sufficient profit to make it a good investment decision for the business. That can be done in a couple of ways;

- direct return, either on rental or by increased overall charge for added production value
- increased workload through offering a better quality/service than your competitors

You also need to factor in the potential for reduced workload, if you don't keep up with the pack.

But however you cook it, the kit needs to be paid for.

The way I approach it with a client is to openly quote for the basic option and the full quality option, with a clear explanation of the differences. On a full quote, with day rates, lenses, expenses, sound etc it really isn't a big difference in cost, but a huge step up in quality, so in my experience, on the whole, quite an easy sell. Sometimes they don't need the quality and would rather save the pennies, that's their choice (although with a regular client we could well turn up with it anyway as a one off to show them what they'll be missing in the future).
 
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Finally got around to updating my 7Q firmware since I'm taking it on a job tomorrow (haven't used it much since it's not very useful for my jobs without recording LUTs, I can't deliver SLOG2 for most of my stuff).

The firmware update procedure needs to be fixed. There is no circumstance anyone would ever want the firmware update to remain on the SSD after updating the firmware. I just updated and then tried to format the SSD but it kept trying to detect and re-init the SSD (tried to shut down during this process but the 7Q was locked up) and I looked away while it was counting down and next thing I knew it had rebooted and was running the firmware update again since the SSD was still in and the process does not remove the update folder. This is a pretty silly process. Just do what RED does and delete the folder when the update is complete so I can just keep working. Also that is a long firmware update process, I can't think of any user-upgradeable equipment that took that long to upgrade the firmware... It's a bit of a hazard since the unit is particularly vulnerable during that process. Would losing power during that 20min process result in bricking? or is there a bootloader that will always allow firmware installation even in the case of a bad flash?

Also I've hardly used my 7Q and the "screen-protector" seems to get scratched or scuffed very easily even by brushing up against soft materials like my padded case... Seems like a very poor design since I would take it off and just not use it but it has all the button and input labels and I need those. If it's going to be such a flimsy screen decal, CD should really consider shipping every unit with a whole bunch of extras or providing alternative stickers that label the buttons/inputs without covering the screen. Why not just make these things with the labels engraved or printed so you dont need the filmsy screen protector?
 
nyvz said:
Finally got around to updating my 7Q firmware since I'm taking it on a job tomorrow (haven't used it much since it's not very useful for my jobs without recording LUTs, I can't deliver SLOG2 for most of my stuff).

The firmware update procedure needs to be fixed. There is no circumstance anyone would ever want the firmware update to remain on the SSD after updating the firmware. I just updated and then tried to format the SSD but it kept trying to detect and re-init the SSD (tried to shut down during this process but the 7Q was locked up) and I looked away while it was counting down and next thing I knew it had rebooted and was running the firmware update again since the SSD was still in and the process does not remove the update folder. This is a pretty silly process. Just do what RED does and delete the folder when the update is complete so I can just keep working. Also that is a long firmware update process, I can't think of any user-upgradeable equipment that took that long to upgrade the firmware... It's a bit of a hazard since the unit is particularly vulnerable during that process. Would losing power during that 20min process result in bricking? or is there a bootloader that will always allow firmware installation even in the case of a bad flash?

Also I've hardly used my 7Q and the "screen-protector" seems to get scratched or scuffed very easily even by brushing up against soft materials like my padded case... Seems like a very poor design since I would take it off and just not use it but it has all the button and input labels and I need those. If it's going to be such a flimsy screen decal, CD should really consider shipping every unit with a whole bunch of extras or providing alternative stickers that label the buttons/inputs without covering the screen. Why not just make these things with the labels engraved or printed so you dont need the filmsy screen protector?
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Just take the SSD out once the firmware update completes. You can remove the update package on a computer if you like. Or simply reboot the O7Q and patiently wait the 10sec for it to ask if you want to update - and click cancel. The unit boots as normal and you can format the drive.

in my experience the update takes about as long as a firmware update on an Epic. About 5mins no? For safety I plug it into the wall.

I'm not sure what the issue with the screen protector is - I've had no problems, but I keep my. Odyssey wrapped in an old lens cloth to protect the screen while travelling. I'm sure CD can send out new ones though.
 
oh yeah and while I'm complaining, is there something I'm missing with the playback mode? No play controls? No seeking or ff/rw or prev/next? Only add to playlist and go? I am taking it on a job just for video assist playback and I somehow assumed it would be better than my $300 hyperdeck shuttle which works basically only linearly (next/prev clip and ff/rw) but now looks like the hyperdeck will do the job better than the 7q...
 
nyvz said:
Finally got around to updating my 7Q firmware since I'm taking it on a job tomorrow (haven't used it much since it's not very useful for my jobs without recording LUTs, I can't deliver SLOG2 for most of my stuff).

The firmware update procedure needs to be fixed. There is no circumstance anyone would ever want the firmware update to remain on the SSD after updating the firmware. I just updated and then tried to format the SSD but it kept trying to detect and re-init the SSD (tried to shut down during this process but the 7Q was locked up) and I looked away while it was counting down and next thing I knew it had rebooted and was running the firmware update again since the SSD was still in and the process does not remove the update folder. This is a pretty silly process. Just do what RED does and delete the folder when the update is complete so I can just keep working. Also that is a long firmware update process, I can't think of any user-upgradeable equipment that took that long to upgrade the firmware... It's a bit of a hazard since the unit is particularly vulnerable during that process. Would losing power during that 20min process result in bricking? or is there a bootloader that will always allow firmware installation even in the case of a bad flash?

Also I've hardly used my 7Q and the "screen-protector" seems to get scratched or scuffed very easily even by brushing up against soft materials like my padded case... Seems like a very poor design since I would take it off and just not use it but it has all the button and input labels and I need those. If it's going to be such a flimsy screen decal, CD should really consider shipping every unit with a whole bunch of extras or providing alternative stickers that label the buttons/inputs without covering the screen. Why not just make these things with the labels engraved or printed so you dont need the filmsy screen protector?
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When the firmware update is complete, simply use the POWER button next to the power input jack to power down the Odyssey, the cycle is back on. The firmware update process wil begin again and you can hit cancel to stop it. Then go to
[*]-->[ODYSSEY]-->[SSDs]-->[FORMAT SSD].

The screen protector is an industry standard model. Replacements are $35 each.
 
nyvz said:
oh yeah and while I'm complaining, is there something I'm missing with the playback mode? No play controls? No seeking or ff/rw or prev/next? Only add to playlist and go? I am taking it on a job just for video assist playback and I somehow assumed it would be better than my $300 hyperdeck shuttle which works basically only linearly (next/prev clip and ff/rw) but now looks like the hyperdeck will do the job better than the 7q...
Click to expand...
Additional playback controls are in the pipeline for future firmware.
 
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