Odyssey7Q+, and support for Odyssey7Q

I don't understand the big push for HDMI. It's a flaky interface, mechanically speaking, especially the mini-HDMI connector. SDI is so much more robust and professional. HDMI is a consumer level piece of hardware. If it wasn't for mini-HDMI connectors on DSLR's, I doubt this interface would have much impact on the industry. As for myself, I avoid HDMI like the plague. This interface should never, ever be a professional option for field work. It works great for a livingroom TV, and that's about it.
 
Its only 1,5 month since 7Q+ was denied.

10-24-2014 02:23 PM
I mostly just read here but after the last firmware update I had a power pin bend and my 7Q which was then dead, while talking to the tech about the repair and RMA via phone he said this was one of the first units made and this problem had been seen before with others. He also stated that on the new 7Q plus coming out, would have a different connection, so a previous guess about a 7Q plus might be part of the news, which makes sense because with a price drop, that a updated unit is on the horizon. Just hoping we don't get screwed in the process while waiting for the updates and then the 7Q1 becomes obsolete. My 2 cents BC​
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?327435-Odyssey-7Q-Firmware-2-11-110/page41


Heres Mitch making fun of our 7Q+ speculation and denying it on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/mitch_gross/status/525747928678555650

Heres Mitch making fun of us directly on the forum here:

​

My, when the cat's away the mice do play.
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?327435-Odyssey-7Q-Firmware-2-11-110/page44

I DID NOT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH A REPLACEMENT TO THE ODYSSEY7Q. The one poster here on the forum that mentioned such a thing was referring to a tech support phone call from August, when he had an issue with his power port. At the time we were considering changing to a different connector on the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q, but later decided against this idea. And that is the extent of that.
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Mitch, to be honest.

This is deliberate deception and deceit. I`ll never trust you again.
 
digger said:
I asked this on the official thread, but this one is more active.

With the new firmware, is there any reason an existing Odyssey shouldn't be able to record 4k from the A7s through an HDMI to SDI converter?
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From memory it's also an issue of suitable converter boxes. The one that currently works goes to single 3G sdi. The 7q and now 7q+ are still maxed at 3gsdi. The converter box (or chain of converter boxes) that should work that goes to 4 x sdi has been tested by cd and been said not to work with the 7q.

I was thinking of testing http://www.eoshd.com/2014/07/james-miller-adds-167-hardware-4k-scaler-box-sony-a7s-stunning-results/ with the a7s and 7q, but then read here an oponion maybe it's its not the case http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...inja-Blade-or-O7Q-Prores-contrast-issue/page3

to me if I can get a cleaner a7s 4k2hd in my existing 7q it might tide me over. That's what bothers me more about no hdmi solution, I was hoping for a cleaner a7s image from 4k then downconvert as compared to extra cropping/stabilisation . Who knows maybe cd will do a 4k2hd for the 7q/7q+ just for iq reasons as a way to help fight shogun. Their special sauce down conversion was from fs700 raw though not from 8bit uncompressed. The portion that applies to detail and aliasing of that sauce may apply though.

obviously way cleaner with 7q plus and doing the 4k to hd in post.

Anyone else tried using the external converter?

think 4k2hd for the lowlight king would be useful?
 
paulcurtis said:
Mitch,

I did ask previously on the official thread but this one seems to have become more active.

Beyond that HDMI capability are there any other changes to the O7Q+ that are significant? Or will become more significant in the future? Is it conceivable that future firmware may target O7Q+ only?

HDMI 1.4 only supports 8 bit at these resolutions, it's HDMI 2.0 that supports 10 and 12 bit. IMHO 1.4 seems an industry stop gap, i can't see it lasting for any real professional use (even on the AV side). So i'd be a bit concerned that the O7Q+ might also be a bit of a stopgap until 2.0 is around. Of course no cameras are outputting 2.0 AFAIK and the O7Q+ is more than just an HDMI recorder.

On that basis it's quite difficult to see why i would upgrade based on that function alone (even though i have an A7s) although it is tempting... Not sure what the second hand value is over here.

IMHO I would have much preferred to see a small CD conversion box between 1.4 and something we can record on the O7Q.

cheers
Paul
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Is there anything more than the increased HDMI capability?
Not really. I don't give an absolute NO because we did do something with the connectivity on the SDI input ports. It's something that no camera on the market today or (that we know of) will do in the coming months, but the new parts cost the same as the old so we decided to use them just in case. I'm wary of going into any detail because it could very well never materialize into anything we ever enable as there may never be anything inputting to us. But as far as the question of increased capability for anything on the market today or other limitations such as frame rates or processing power, I cannot be more clear than to emphatically state that there is no difference in the capabilities of the Odyssey7Q and the Odyssey7Q+ other than the HDMI input.

We would have loved to offer a small converter box. The available chips and boxes we found to be both unreliable and overpriced. You would have had to pay around $1000 and even then we weren't satisfied with it as a product. We spent a great deal of time and money pursuing this option. Perhaps someone will make a simple converter in the future for this that will be worthwhile, but it does not currently exist.
 
sunnyjimfilms said:
I have to say I would feel very hard done by if all of a sudden firmware updates only came out for the + and the 7Q went the way of other CD products, without completing it's journey. Just saying.
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We are not abandoning the Odyssey7Q. The programming architecture of the entire Odyssey Family of Products (Odyssey7, Odyssey7Q, Odyssey7Q+) is the same. All firmware updates will apply to all three devices where functions make sense. For the Odyssey7Q and the Odyssey7Q+, that functionality is nearly identical.
 
Fader8 said:
But over SDI ther is PRO RES 4k, right?

Well on the specs of B&H the SHogun is listed as UHD 10-bit.

If 10-bit UHD is possible then it'd be a bit dumb of CD not to integrate it...then there must be an Odeyssey 7Q++ ;)
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People are quoting the Shogun's specs but I do not believe they are reading them carefully enough. I don't think Atoms is lying, but it does appear that people are reading something other than what is written. The Shogun's spec does note that it accepts UHD in 8-bit or 10-bit, depending on the camera. But people don't seem to notice that Atoms also states that this is for SDI as well as HDMI. So that's 10-bit available over SDI and 8-bit over HDMI.

I have not had a look inside, but I'm pretty sure that the Atomos Shogun is using the same HDMI receiver chip that we are using in the Odyssey7Q+. Because it is the only game in town. So our capabilities here should match. Now if it is true that Panasonic is able to get a true 10-bit signal across this in an output then if there is any way we can extract 10-bit we will make it happen. We have no reason to hold back and certainly the rest of our processing architecture can handle it -- we are 4K 10-bit over SDI right now. This is a question we are looking into and we will determine what is possible and act to get the most out of the machine. If we can't do it, it is because it cannot be done with currently available hardware.
 
abreu-canedo said:
Clermond, it's true. Mitch is a PR person.

Im im not suggesting that anyone should or shouldn't be expecting any features.

Speculations on future firmware roadmaps are much more subject to error than statements on current hardware. With that said, it's entirely possible that Mitch's statement was a type of "marketing speech" meant to mislead 7Q users into passively accepting the release of the 7Q+. I cannot comment on his intention, but his statement does give the impression that both units will be capable of similar processing features outside of the HdMI limitation.

If indeed both units have the same processing unit, CD may still decide to cripple the 7Q as a business decision to encourage users to buy the 7Q+.

Again, I'm not suggesting one or the other, just thought I'd add this tithe conversation :)
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First off, I am not a PR person.

I am the Director of Communications at Convergent-Design. As such I do try to be in contact with users on forums such as this as well as in many other ways. I also work with our third party manufacturers and work directly with the companies such as Sony and Canon who make the cameras our products interact with. Not to sit here and toot my own horn, but I am not a flack, a spin guy, a marketer or other public relations type whose job it is to take the company line as handed down from others and try to sell it to the public. I am a decision maker within our company. I may not be a programmer or an electrical engineer, but I was a cinematographer for 20 years with a couple dozen features and hundreds of other projects under my belt. I also worked for the better part of a decade at AbelCine, consulting with end users as well as manufacturers on the available technologies and their use. I believe that I can safely state that I have some knowledge and the reputation and experience to prove it.

That all said, let me once more categorically state that other than the higher capability of the HDMI input (allowing 4K/UHD as well as 1080p60), there is no difference in the capabilities of the Odyssey7Q and the Odyssey7Q+. Furthermore we would NEVER cripple the Odyssey7Q and al of our future firmware updates will apply to the Odyssey7, Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ as functionally makes sense. That "makes sense" is not a secret code, it is just to separate the Odyssey7 from the other two and between the 7Q and the 7Q+ separate those HDMI functions. And that's it.
 
Martin.G said:
Well, to be honest, i actually find it disturbingly possible that they indeed have upgraded something other than HDMI inside the O7Q+.
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As noted, there is no other change. There is a part change on the SDI ports but it is something that is not applicable to any camera available or any we know of, and it very well may never be. So it is effectively identical.
 
digger said:
I asked this on the official thread, but this one is more active.

With the new firmware, is there any reason an existing Odyssey shouldn't be able to record 4k from the A7s through an HDMI to SDI converter?
Click to expand...
If such a converter were to exist, there is no reason for it not to work. The problem is that there is no converter available, at least not one that we found acceptable. We even tried some that were in chip module form (a small board, as opposed to a finished device in a case) and none were deemed reliable or otherwise passed our QC evaluation. We tried to make this type of solution.
 
Martin.G said:
Remember 3-4 months ago when we had the discussion about the 7Q+ unit?

It was completely denied.

So i dont really trust Mitch anymore, thats my problem. Selling all of it and getting FS7 with 10bit internal seems much more needed now than a week ago.
Click to expand...

Back in August someone posted a question about an Odyssey7Q+. At the time the question was about a change in the power connector. We decided that the change would not happen, and that was the extent of the exchange.
 
Martin.G said:
Its only 1,5 month since 7Q+ was denied.



http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?327435-Odyssey-7Q-Firmware-2-11-110/page41


Heres Mitch making fun of our 7Q+ speculation and denying it on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/mitch_gross/status/525747928678555650

Heres Mitch making fun of us directly on the forum here:

​



http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?327435-Odyssey-7Q-Firmware-2-11-110/page44



Mitch, to be honest.

This is deliberate deception and deceit. I`ll never trust you again.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I've lost your trust. I do hope to be able to earn it back.

The speculations on the forum were just that, speculations. They were wild and wildly inaccurate speculations. They had little to nothing to do with the reality of what was in progress at Convergent Design. And even as recently as October we were attepting to make other solutions work as options for Odyssey7Q owners wishing to record 4K over HDMI.

I am not a liar. But sometimes the truth is not so simple, and sometimes I cannot provide all the answers. For one thing we have competitors. For another, sometimes things change in midstream.
 
Gentlemen, I want you all to know that we have been and continue to work hard to deliver the best solutions for our clients as well as the most economically viable ones. We did not casually decide on the course that has come to pass. It was arrived at after a vast amount of work was done studying and testing other options, and there were many discussions to determine just what we could offer to our clients. We truly believe that what we are offering is the best possible option that is workable at this time.

I wrote the following for another community that I feel worth posting here.
---


This is the best deal possible. Let me explain.


The Odyssey7Q’s HDMI input receiver chip is hardware-limited to a maximum signal of 1080p30 (1080i60). At the time the Odyssey7Q was developed this was the most advanced HDMI receiver chip on the market.


Convergent Design looked into numerous solutions to physically adding 4K input to the Odyssey7Q. We did extensive testing on a box to accept 4K HDMI and convert it to SDI to plug into the Odyssey. It proved unreliable and degraded the signal. It was also bulky, power hungry (requiring separate power), heavy, inelegant and worst of all quite expensive. The solution would have cost more than $1000 to end users. After trying to solve the technical issues in multiple ways, we had to abandon the option. Perhaps in the future there may be a off the shelf chip that does this work and the cost can be dramatically lowered while the functionality stabilized, but that is not the case today.


We looked into the possibility of a physical upgrade to the Odyssey7Q to turn it into an Odyssey7Q+. This is no small task. The board went through a major redesign to accommodate the new HDMI receiver chip (that’s why we had to swap the locations of the HDMI in & out ports). The only way to do it would be to rip out the old board and replace it with an entirely new one, then go through extensive testing on what was essentially a new unit. We would have had to charge over $1000 for that as well. It would also mean clients sending in Odyssey7Qs from all over the world, being without their devices for weeks, customs and VAT issues for international trade, etc. It would have been a nightmare to deal with for you and for us.


We thought about a simple swap: send us your Odyssey7Q plus a fee and we send you an Odyssey7Q+. But this again would be a nightmare for international clients, some of whom would end up paying more to do this then they would simply buying a new Odyssey7Q+. It would also again mean you would be without your monitor/recorders for weeks. And that fee would be a bit hefty as there are substantial hard costs we have in the construction of an Odyssey7Q+. I know you all think that it should only cost maybe a couple hundred dollars, but the reality is that we would once again be hovering near that $1000 mark.


So we decided to give you a bunch of value on your original Odyssey7Q so that you could choose to sell it yourselves. Trading in your car at the dealer is painless but you always get much less for it then if you sold the car yourself. We were trying to make it as sellable as possible. The Odyssey7Q get a warranty extension like it was brand new. The Record Options remain on it raising its value. And to try to ease the transition some more we include a gift of $500 on our webstore.


We sell the Odyssey7 new for $1295. A used Odyssey7Q should easily sell for at least that much. It comes with at least the same warranty and it does so much more. Depending on the Record Options you have the potential to come quite close to the full purchase price of the Odyssey7Q+ or even exceed it.


In the end we felt that this was the best value we could offer our clients. It may mean a bit more work for you to sell your Odyssey7Q on eBay should you choose to, but it is the least expensive, least painful way for you to move into owning a recorder for 4K over HDMI.
 
Mitch Gross said:
First off, I am not a PR person.

I am the Director of Communications at Convergent-Design. As such I do try to be in contact with users on forums such as this as well as in many other ways. I also work with our third party manufacturers and work directly with the companies such as Sony and Canon who make the cameras our products interact with. Not to sit here and toot my own horn, but I am not a flack, a spin guy, a marketer or other public relations type whose job it is to take the company line as handed down from others and try to sell it to the public. I am a decision maker within our company. I may not be a programmer or an electrical engineer, but I was a cinematographer for 20 years with a couple dozen features and hundreds of other projects under my belt. I also worked for the better part of a decade at AbelCine, consulting with end users as well as manufacturers on the available technologies and their use. I believe that I can safely state that I have some knowledge and the reputation and experience to prove it.

That all said, let me once more categorically state that other than the higher capability of the HDMI input (allowing 4K/UHD as well as 1080p60), there is no difference in the capabilities of the Odyssey7Q and the Odyssey7Q+. Furthermore we would NEVER cripple the Odyssey7Q and al of our future firmware updates will apply to the Odyssey7, Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ as functionally makes sense. That "makes sense" is not a secret code, it is just to separate the Odyssey7 from the other two and between the 7Q and the 7Q+ separate those HDMI functions. And that's it.
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Mitch,

Forgive me if my calling you a PR person undervalues the entirety of the work you do as Director of Communication at CD. This was not my intent. I'm aware of your history with Able Cine and your technical expertise--not to be underestimated. I suppose I just meant that part of what it seems you do as Director of Communication at CD is relate with the public--so to speak. And as such, there is a tact to that. I thought it was a fair statement to make and marketing speech does not inherently imply misleading. I won't belabor this any further, I just wanted to clarify what was an informal response to another post on this thread. When I said PR person, that was not meant pejoratively, nor to call into question your character and skills. I respect you as a professional and a human being, and I hope you keep this in mind as you read this or any other of my posts.

Lastly, I was not accusing you of using misleading speech, nor of crippling the 7Q. I was simply laying out some imagined scenarios and responding to others concerns that we're being expressed in this thread. I never qualified the probability of any scenarios I mentioned, nor make definitive suggestions about the intentions of you as a person or CD as a company. My main point was to inform others on this thread of your statement about the comparable capabilities of the 7Q and the 7Q+ because speculations about the 7Q not getting certain firmware updates were expressed in this thread.

Thank you for clarifying. There are now less scenarios and possibilities for us to consider here (although I can only speak for myself) and I'm sure that for myself and others this new release and direction feels much less "murky". I can only hope that the roadmap for the 7Q remains as positive as you have suggested here and in other threads I have no reason to believe otherwise, since my technical expertise is limited, and I look forward to seeing this piece of equipment (which I gladly purchased) continue to grow.

Thank you for your hard work.
-Sincerely, me!
 
abreu-canedo said:
Thank you for your hard work.
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this is something I don't understand. Convergent changes plans and has a delay for months with promised and paid in advance features and people thank for hard work and apologize for having complained.

I am not interested in 4K over HDMI at all and if I had a G4 or A7s as B-Cam I would go definitely for the Shogun. For me the 7Q+ is another example of C-D's inconsistent policy.
 
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Clermond said:
I am not interested in 4K over HDMI at all and if I had a G4 or A7s as B-Cam I would go definitely for the Shogun. For me the 7Q+ is another example of C-D's inconsistent policy.
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The Shogun is certainly a contender but without 4K UHD to HD loop through, all our HD monitors are useless. And, no I don't want to buy another thing like a future converter box. This is the biggest thing holding me back. CD 7Q+ isn't perfect either...
 
Alright, so the 7Q+ is out. Personally, i don't mind. I have no current use for HDMI. So okay, they got the UDH ProRes out. They got the 7Q+ out. I imagine that took at lot.

Now that those are out of the way... what i'm really wondering is when we might get to see features like Onion Skinning, that i imagined myself using at some point in 2014 when i bought the 7Q back in April.
 
UHD ProRes recording is just partly solved.
The device needs to dim the screen during recording, if operated with certain battery types. Hopefully, the code can be redesigned more efficient later. More important: UHD/4K compressed recording of 50 or 60 FPS is still uncertain, it will not come end of next week.
 
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