Odyssey 7Q Firmware 2.11.110

gene_can_sing said:
I think that's why the FS7 has so much appeal. Most of the features are in camera and there's no real need for a 3rd party recorder that everyone has to wait and agonize over. One less link in the chain.
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Like what?

To do prores, you need the add-on. To do RAW, you need the add-on, to get TC, genloc, etc....you need the add-on.

Besides recording UHD in XAVC, I don't see anything else the FS7 does internally that the FS700 doesn't.
 
Interesting to observe that when Sony is late on a delivery, everyone just agrees that it's for a good reason. But, when C-D is late, obviously they're the most underhanded folks in town. Guess I'll start wearing my ties to customer meetings, again.
 
seanmc said:
Like what?

To do prores, you need the add-on. To do RAW, you need the add-on, to get TC, genloc, etc....you need the add-on.

Besides recording UHD in XAVC, I don't see anything else the FS7 does internally that the FS700 doesn't.
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"Like what?" Are you being serious here? The FS7 offers so much over the FS700 + 7Q.

You get everything internal. To me, that's a huge plus. You don't need a recorder that can break down (I've actually rented, and will continue to rent, a second 7Q on bigger shoots just in case this happens = extra cost). Plus, you can have the FS7 just as a basic setup with no rigging for the 7Q which adds size = way better ergonomics.

You get LUTs for a pre-baked look for lower paying jobs. On lower budget jobs, they don't even want the 7Q because they don't want S-Log or a big Pro-Res 422 HQ file size. They just want something 50mbps (preferably 10 bit) or smaller that has good quality with a baked in look which is what the FS7 offers and the 7Q cannot. That's why the C300 is so popular. AVCHD 420 8 bit just isn't that great IMO. S-Log 2 is great on the 7Q, but that's the only current profile. The 7Q Rec 709 has highlight issues.

Of course I'm going to keep the 7Q for RAW and it will be great to have dual high quality recording for big jobs (Pro-Res and XAVC at high bit rate) for a safety backup.

So yeah, while the FS700 + 7Q is great for higher end jobs, it's not so great for lower end jobs which I've been getting a good deal of lately. In the future, maybe the 7Q will have decent LUTS and a smaller Pro-Res LT codec, but they're about 7 months off track the 4K compressed, so I'm not exactly holding my breath.

Basically, the FS700 + 7Q is great for higher end stuff; but the FS7 + 7Q is even better because it covers the high end and the low end. I like to have the fantasy that everything I shoot is high end and only requires S-Log, Pro-Res or RAW. But in reality, I shoot quite a bit of stuff that I would never show to the public, that's only for cash and they want it quick, pre-graded and small file size, which where the FS7 shines.
 
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cuervo said:
But, when C-D is late, obviously they're the most underhanded folks in town. Guess I'll start wearing my ties to customer meetings, again.
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Because being late on 4K compressed recording is filling the threads?
Just to remind everyone: It was promised as Q1 2014 Firmware Upgrade, initially.

I guess, Convergent Design's reputation will rise, as soon as they deliver the promised key feature. The Q in Odyssey7Q stands for quad, not HD recording. That's the beef.

Yes, I know, we have 4K RAW and this may be usable for wedding photography of young, enthusiastic creatives or jobs with large budgets for weeks of post production. May be, I am too elderly and impatient to chase Terrabytes through Resolve with pleasure.

Btw, sorry to note, I am one of the tie-wearing guys at client meetings and usually, my team and I deliver. If a lack of ties could solve this issue, I will be happy to send some over.
 
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rheinturmblau said:
Because being late on 4K compressed recording is filling the threads?
Just to remind everyone: It was promised as Q1 2014 Firmware Upgrade, initially.

I guess, Convergent Design's reputation will rise, as soon as they deliver the promised key feature. The Q in Odyssey7Q stands for quad, not HD recording. That's the beef.

Yes, I know, we have 4K RAW and this may be usable for wedding photography of young, enthusiastic creatives or jobs with large budgets for weeks of post production. May be, I am too elderly and impatient to chase Terrabytes through Resolve with pleasure.

Btw, sorry to note, I am one of the tie-wearing guys at client meetings and usually, my team and I deliver. If a lack of ties could solve this issue, I will be happy to send some over.
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:thumbsup:
 
Gentlemen, tomorrow is the middle of the month (actually tomorrow night, as October has 31 days). Convergent Design will not be releasing a firmware update tomorrow.

I'm curious, just what do you actualy want me to say? I state that we expect to release in a few weeks, aound mid-October. I don't give a precise date, because we may or may not hit that date. So I try to give a general target, and I still say that we EXPECT to release then, not a rock-solid, plan-your-next-shoot-around-it commitment.

**** happens. Issues arise and we figure then out. Don't know hw long the process will take because we don't know what will crop up. If you don't think this is the way everything works then you simply don't know what is involved. Some of you compare the process to your own work bidding, shooting and posting out productions. These are not comparable. I have been in both worlds and I can tell you that the variables of production pale compared to that of advanced programing.

So do you want me to say absolutely nothing from now on? Shall I shut off such communication from Convergent Design? I don't really think you would prefer that.

At the ProFusion show starting tomorrow, I will be showing some Odyssey7Qs on several cameras with some new functions integrated. The firmware on these units still has issues, and we will not release it until it is ready. But we did want to show it to people as we get close.

New features besides 4K ProRes are developed concurrently. Different engineers work in different areas. Some of these are functionality we have discussed here on this forum. For instance, one of our engineers does no work on 4K ProRes but he does do work on the user interface. I think people might like to see what he's done. Should I suggest to our team that we pull everything that has nothing to do with 4K ProRes? I don't think anyone wants that.
 
Issues arising, that's the usual situation in software development. They pave the way like red traffic lights. You stop, wait/resolve and then, you can resume the way.

There are software development technologies to handle that and to ensure release cycles. E.g. separated development (check in/check out of code changes), staging and testing environments. They slow down production but help to ensure quality and timelines. If one function bricks the code, you should be able to go back to a stable version here without endangering other progress. Setting stable milestones and reducing interdependencies of code adds some time/costs. But these are valuable investments for reliability.

There are several engineers working on different functions. If you have continous problems to roll out stable Firmware Releases, you may consider to pull out capacities from the development function to staging and testing. You have 4K ProRes running for at least six weeks now and it's still not out, yet. You will not win the Nobel Price of Software Engineering Architecture.

It's not your personal area of responsibility, Mitch.
You = Convergent Design.

Marketing and Communication have to handle sh*% that happens.
Playing submarine or avoiding to name target dates does not improve the state of the union. A more pro-active communication might help to ease some pain. Missing the Mid-October timeframe is not the news of this Monday. Why did we need to pull this out of your pretty nose?
 
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We utilize separated development and other strategies. We are continuously evaluating how our resources are allocated for maximum efficiency and effectiveness. We are also not Microsoft, and do not have many thousands of programmers crunching away on code.
 
Eh, i wouldn't take it too seriously. It's easy to come on the internet and type about our disappointment. I wake up today, and say "F***! No 4K ProRes yet, WTF!" and i could easily come and type about my disappointment on the forum, and of course it's going to sound much much worse than what i might actually say to Mitch IN PERSON.

No, i don't think CD should stop trying to update us on rough time lines. Maybe give less optimistic estimates. And i hope they don't take the messages on here TOO seriously. Yeah, some folks will be disappointed, but "mid-October" shouldn't mean "heads will roll if it's not the 15th exactly!" Overall, i think people on here are much more respectful than other places i visit online (you should see video game forums!) but everything is bound to get blown out of proportion a bit online. I'd hate to see it come down to a bunch of bickering and games.
 
gene_can_sing said:
"Like what?" Are you being serious here? The FS7 offers so much over the FS700 + 7Q.

You get everything internal.
Like I said, NO, you don't. You get UHD internal recording. That's it. Everything else requires an update and the expansion add-on.

You get LUTs for a pre-baked look for lower paying jobs.
Where is this information? I haven't seen internal user LUTs listed on any of the spec sheets or press releases...pretty sweet if it's true, but I'd like to see that in writing.
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Are your lower paying jobs asking for 4K, but with no post? Then yes, there is an advantage the FS7 clearly has over the FS700.

Listen I like the FS7, it's a nice camera. To me it has as many downsides as upsides when deciding to "upgrade" from the FS700.

Besides, you're comparing a camera that isn't even shipping yet. So let's see what issues arise after the camera is actually in user hands.
 
In the marketplace that exists today, there is a trend to sell you a promise, rather than a product. We're buying features that aren't developed yet. CD isn't alone in this. I could count over a dozen other companies, small and large alike, that do the same thing.

There was a time, many moons ago, when the journalists that cover technology would rake a company over the coals for doing this. Shame them into withdrawal even.

Of course, journalism is dead now, so yeah.
 
seanmc said:
Are your lower paying jobs asking for 4K, but with no post? Then yes, there is an advantage the FS7 clearly has over the FS700.
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Sean, nobody is asking for 4K on lower paying jobs, period. Just the fact that the FS7 can do HD 10-bit 422 at 50 mbps in XAVC is super, super useful right there. I'm talking about shooting reality and event type stuff, which I've been doing lately. 7Q Pro-Res HQ is over 4x as large as that and you have to do post. You're probably more on the high end than I am, but things like file sizes and baked in looks matter to certain people I work with.

http://provideocoalition.com/awilt/story/122-slides-on-the-sony-pxc-fs7/P2

And the specs on B&H list "user" defined settings under the gamma curves. Very useful for quick handoffs. I might be mistaken before and they might not be a LUT, but you can still change the color settings.
 
Gotcha. I honestly forgot about the improvement of XAVC codec.

I honestly hoped you were right. I don't know anyone that allows in camera user LUTs. Does Red allow that?

I'm most jealous of Slog3 as I think it's miles better than Slog2.

EDIT: Thx for that link, I've never seen that post before. Far more information then I've seen anywhere else.
 
seanmc said:
I honestly hoped you were right. I don't know anyone that allows in camera user LUTs. Does Red allow that?

I'm most jealous of Slog3 as I think it's miles better than Slog2.
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The Arri Amira does. You can apply the look for viewing in camera or to a monitor or burn it in. Its phenomenally useful.

And SLOG3 is useful. Combined with the S.Gamut 3, Sony better approximates how Arri deals with color data coming off the sensor to more approximate how color with film works.
 
slipstrea808 said:
The Arri Amira does. You can apply the look for viewing in camera or to a monitor or burn it in. Its phenomenally useful.

And SLOG3 is useful. Combined with the S.Gamut 3, Sony better approximates how Arri deals with color data coming off the sensor to more approximate how color with film works.
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GOD... S-Log 3 + S.Gamut 3 if it works close to the F55, it would be a dream come true. The Alexa and F55 look so close. I really couldn't tell them apart on this test.

https://vimeo.com/96696423

 
seanmc said:
Gotcha. I honestly forgot about the improvement of XAVC codec.

I honestly hoped you were right. I don't know anyone that allows in camera user LUTs. Does Red allow that?

I'm most jealous of Slog3 as I think it's miles better than Slog2.
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As far as I know, F5, F55, F65, Alexa and Amira do it, but the FS7 will soon probably be the least expensive camera to do custom user LUTs for monitoring and recording in-camera. The new Varicams will do it too.

Red doesn't do it yet, but they recently released a firmware that has "monitoring LUTs" in the menus and lets you select which outputs get the LUT but doesn't yet support anything other than the same redgamma curves. As I understand it, it's supposedly a sign that they will likely be supporting custom user LUTs in a future release.

What makes you think SLOG3 is way better than SLOG2? I was sort of under the impression SLOG3 pretty much just maps the same DR but with a curve that is much closer to Arri's LogC. I'd think that as long as you are recording with sufficient bit-depth you can easily just get a LUT that would convert one to the other without much issue. I know SLOG3 supposedly has 1.5 more stops of DR compared to SLOG2 according to Sony's whitepapers, but in practice I'm not sure how true that is. It might just be a re balancing of the same DR... I haven't specifically tested for myself, but I am under the impression that when the F5/F55 got a firmware update for SLOG3 it didn't magically increase the camera's DR over the last firmware. It also doesn't really make sense given Sony's own Cine-EI ratings since it still labels ISO2000 as having 6.0E of highlights whether you use SLOG2 or SLOG3 I believe.

I think if you expose both SLOG2 and SLOG3 for the same white clipping point and then grade them to match, the shadow noise and overall DR will be the same. It seems like it's just more a matter of preference in whether you like your LOG with brighter levels and LogC compatibility, but if you are using LUT or workflows that work for either SLOG2 or SLOG3 it may not make that much difference.
 
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The thing is Slog3 has a huge color space. Bigger than slog2. Grading slog 3 is more difficult, which is why Sony made slog3.cine. Supposedly, it's easier to grade than slog3. But, none of the slog3 variants have the same dynamic range as slog2, which remains the primo slog curve to use, especially considering that there are no monitors on the market that can display the full slog3gamut. Here's the gamuts from Art Adams,
http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/sony_sgamut_vs_sgamut3.html
colorspaces.JPG
The following comes directly from Sony:
S-Gamut3 vs S-Gamut3.Cine

There is a lot of confusion regarding S-Gamut3 and S-Gamut3.Cine. Essentially the difference is S-Gamut3 is the native (very wide) color space of the camera, and is wider than REC-2020. It is very good for archiving as a digital camera negative, as transcoded / debayered up to16 bit code values. However, it is much more involved to grade footage than if shot using S-Gamut3.Cine. Whereas S-Gamut3.Cine is natural color reproduction with minimum grading needed in comparison to SGamut3, it is still a wide color space, beyond DCI-P3, and much wider than REC-709.

We recommend shooting S-Gamut3.Cine most of the time. The Look Profiles, and 709 3DLUT’s provided in the camera, and in Sony's RAW Viewer are designed specifically for S-Gamut3.Cine, not for S-Gamut3.

If you choose to shoot S-Gamut3 you need to convert to S-Gamut3.Cine with the 3DLUT provided below, “SLog3SG3toSG3Cine.cube”, then in addition apply Look Profiles or other type 3DLUT provided with the camera and in Sony's RAW Viewer. In other words you need to apply two 3DLUT’s.

If you are experienced at Color Grading, you can indeed shoot S-Gamut3, but as mentioned above it is much more work than if shooting (and thus grading) S-Gamut3.Cine

So to conclude:

S-Gamut3:


  • Camera native color space, wider than REC-2020
  • Very good for archiving.
  • In camera Look Profiles and 3DLUT’s are not designed for S-Gamut3
  • For experienced Color grading only
  • You need two 3DLUT’s to grade effectively:
1) SLog3SG3toSG3Cine.cube (provided below) +
2) Either Sony provided Look Profile or 3DLUT

S-Gamut3.Cine:


  • Very natural color reproduction, wide color space
  • Very easy grading
  • Slightly wider than DCI-P3, and much wider than REC-709
  • Look Profiles, and 709 3DLUT’s provided by Sony are designed specifically for S-Gamut3.Cine
 
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I believe the FS7 offers M-LUTS (monitoring LUTS), not recordable LUTS.

A Zone System exposure tool may be possible for the Odyssey, but really it offers little advantage over our current false color display. RED may or may not own this particular implementation, but it certainly isn't a new idea and there are several examples of prior art. Panasonic had something a decade ago and Leader has a much-touted function that is VERY similar in its scopes. I'm sure there are others as well. Nice to see it implemented in a camera, but as I said it really isn't that much different from False Color mode.
 
ChadN said:
Eh, i wouldn't take it too seriously. It's easy to come on the internet and type about our disappointment. I wake up today, and say "F***! No 4K ProRes yet, WTF!" and i could easily come and type about my disappointment on the forum, and of course it's going to sound much much worse than what i might actually say to Mitch IN PERSON.

No, i don't think CD should stop trying to update us on rough time lines. Maybe give less optimistic estimates. And i hope they don't take the messages on here TOO seriously. Yeah, some folks will be disappointed, but "mid-October" shouldn't mean "heads will roll if it's not the 15th exactly!" Overall, i think people on here are much more respectful than other places i visit online (you should see video game forums!) but everything is bound to get blown out of proportion a bit online. I'd hate to see it come down to a bunch of bickering and games.
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Don't worry, i was just venting a bit. There is a point that no matter what I or CD do people will complain, and I just wanted to point out the absurdity of some of the statements made here.

DVXUSER is an important communication portal to us, but it is only one portal. We connect to end users in many other ways.
 
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