Odyssey 7Q: aftermarket SSDs ?

capt chuck said:
That sounds great! what a nice approach.

I'm looking forward to this product from both the monitoring and recording perspectives.

If possible, I would love to see the user manual on-line at some point to learn the menu navigation etc. prior to my unit arriving (I understand it's probably in flux as of today).
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Dear Chuck,

Our user manual is not ready.

We have been greatly improving the user interface on the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q, and this, of course, changes the user manual.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
jshbckr said:
Don't get me wrong, if we could use third-party SSDs, I'd totally pick up a couple for the 7Q. But CD's prices are nowhere near the prices that RED and Sony have on their cards. A RED 256gb mag is $2450, over $2000 more than CD's drive. And Sony's SxS cards are $1389 for 128GB, granted they have incredibly high read/write speeds.

I wouldn't mind using third-party SSDs but you're only paying about 1.6x the cost of a comparable SSD (Samsung 840 Pro 256GB = $240 on NewEgg), as opposed to RED's 10x cost.
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Dear Jshbckr,

I appreciate your comments on the relative pricing of our SSD's.

But, here is a problem:

"comparable SSD (Samsung 840 Pro 256GB = $240 on NewEgg)"

This is not really a comparable SSD.

This is a very nice, fast SSD, but, after reading the spec's, I could not find any mention of "power protection", which is a vital feature.

Many camera operators will work hard to ensure that their camera's do not run out of power while shooting.

But, for many professionals, this is very hard, as some professional cameras draw quite a lot of power, and batteries running out of power during a shoot is actually quite common.

This can cause serious problems when using common or even high-end consumer SSD's.

There are better SSD's that include "power protection" that prevent these problems, but these SSD's cost more.

Thus comparing our SSD's to the Samsung 840 Pro (a very good consumer SSD) is not a comparison of equals.

I hope this helps.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
How does power protection work on CD's SSDs?

You yank out the power in the middle of recording, and yet the last video is saved up to that point, and there's never any corruption of the SSD's file structure - yes?
 
We have been greatly improving the user interface on the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q, and this, of course, changes the user manual.
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Thanks for your reply Dan. I figured the manual wasn't ready yet, but would like to see it on-line some time if possible (I figure it will be ready before my order arrives at my doorstep :) ).

I'm glad to hear you're taking the user interface seriously, I think if the odyssey had a clumsy UI it could still be a good product, but with a good UI, this should be an outstanding product.
 
PrimeHD said:
How does power protection work on CD's SSDs?

You yank out the power in the middle of recording, and yet the last video is saved up to that point, and there's never any corruption of the SSD's file structure - yes?
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Dear Alex,

1. If the SSD is removed while recording, or if the power fails, then the SSD is smart enough to finish all pending writes, and shut itself down in an orderly fashion preserving all of the data on the SSD.

2. When the SSD is re-inserted or when power is restored, our firmware is smart enough to detect the abnormal condition, restore everything, and then gracefully close the file.

Most likely, the very last frame, the one that was only partially being transfered to the SSD when power is lost, will be lost.
All previous frames should be preserved.

I hope this helps.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
capt chuck said:
Thanks for your reply Dan. I figured the manual wasn't ready yet, but would like to see it on-line some time if possible (I figure it will be ready before my order arrives at my doorstep :) ).

I'm glad to hear you're taking the user interface seriously, I think if the odyssey had a clumsy UI it could still be a good product, but with a good UI, this should be an outstanding product.
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Dear Captain Chuck,

Our team is trying very hard.

I am certain that our User Interface will be improved over time based on our teams suggestions and our user's suggestions.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
======== sorry for bad formatting - carryover from this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-SLog2&p=1986349180&viewfull=1#post1986349180

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by PrimeHD

I'm following Amazon feedback on a number of things, including SD cards. Regular folks seems to understand differences between card speeds very well. Odyssey is not even for them - so pros, I'm sure, will figure out that class 2 card won't work :)

But perhaps it'd be better to continue this discussion here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...SDs&highlight=

jshbckr said:

now you're asking about SD cards?
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Why not? The initial release of Odyssey 7Q will probably be more 1080p inclined than any other resolution. Moreover, subsequent releases will hopefully refine it with the HD derived from downsampled 4K.

It seems to me that at least 50% of votes in this sister thread as of today, were for HD as priority.

Now, HD in ProRes 422 10bit apparently can be recorded on SDXC card without a problem, as demonstrated by Blackmagic Pocket Camera. Then why not on Odyssey 7Q?

I'd say absolutely 7Q should have 3 slots: 2 for SSDs, and one SD. This actually should resolve the potential confusion CD was worried about: compressed HD at standard fps (24-30) goes on SD card, everything else goes on SSD slots.
 
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PrimeHD said:
======== sorry for bad formatting - carryover from this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-SLog2&p=1986349180&viewfull=1#post1986349180

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by PrimeHD

I'm following Amazon feedback on a number of things, including SD cards. Regular folks seems to understand differences between card speeds very well. Odyssey is not even for them - so pros, I'm sure, will figure out that class 2 card won't work :)

But perhaps it'd be better to continue this discussion here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...SDs&highlight=

jshbckr said:



Why not? The initial release of Odyssey 7Q will probably be more 1080p inclined than any other resolution. Moreover, subsequent releases will hopefully refine it with the HD derived from downsampled 4K.

It seems to me that at least 50% of votes in this sister thread as of today, were for HD as priority.

Now, HD in ProRes 422 10bit apparently can be recorded on SDXC card without a problem, as demonstrated by Blackmagic Pocket Camera. Then why not on Odyssey 7Q?

I'd say absolutely 7Q should have 3 slots: 2 for SSDs, and one SD. This actually should resolve the potential confusion CD was worried about: compressed HD at standard fps (24-30) goes on SD card, everything else goes on SSD slots.
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I wasn't aware that there was "potential confusion" that CD was worried about. And how is an SD card isolated from all the reasons that Dan already gave you as to why they don't want to allow third-party SSDs? And I would argue that your "compressed on SD, everything else on SSD" actually invites more confusion. Does that mean you need an SD card for compressed? If people are already getting confused about which modes require 2 SSDs vs. 1 SSD, then how will adding an extra slot with a different media resolve that confusion?

It just sounds to me like you don't want to face the fact that the 7Q will only record to CD's first-party SSDs. Maybe they'll have a change of heart but according to what Dan has already said, I don't see this happening.
 
Odyssey 7Q people are still developing it, and I feel it is very appropriate to discuss ideas that can make it better and more useful.

Clearly it is up to CD to filter those ideas as per what will be implemented.

SDXC cards are very widely used to record compressed HD, take minimal space, are very reliable, and cost little. What's the downside? I'm surprised CD did not consider it from the get-go, for the compressed HD format recordings.

>> Maybe they'll have a change of heart but according to what Dan has already said, I don't see this happening. - jshbckr

That's your opinion, which you very consistently insert after each of my posts, and somehow tie it to what would CD supposedly do and say, again in your own opinion. Is this conducive to free discussion - which by the way CD itself seems to encourage in tehse forums? Probably would be better to refer to technical reasons why not use SD cards for compressed HD on Odyssey - which I don't think you personally listed yet.

By the way, I like the company and their products, and voted (still do) with my money for them. No need to protect CD from me :)
 
Odyssey 7Q people are still developing it
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Well yes, but including an SD capabilities would be a fundamental "back to the drawing board change" not a few weeks before release change. It would require circuit board changes, chassis changes, circuit design changes, firmware changes, additional testing etc. The AJA kipro had the hardware to support dual media from the start but only several years after the initial release do they have the second media partially working (one slot vs. two). So even with the hardware in place, this proved to be a pretty big challenge for AJA which like CD are sharp designers/developers. You then might ask why the 7Q is no longer $2295 but is now (a year later when finally released) hundreds of dollars more. CD can contradict me and say they can do this in the current timeline with no price impact, etc., but I wouldn't hold your breath. :)

and I feel it is very appropriate to discuss ideas that can make it better and more useful
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I agree, but in this case the discussion is about what is essentially a completely different product weeks before this particular product is released. In the words you like "in my opinion" the other discussions regarding which resolutions should be delivered first are a lot more constructive.
 
capt chuck said:
the other discussions regarding which resolutions should be delivered first are a lot more constructive.
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Yes, but Dan just mentioned - after all the polling - that CD is still on the fence as to which development to give a priority - 4K compressed or HD derived from 4K. (If I understood him correctly... things are moving fast here LOL)

Do I expect CD to deliver a SDXC-enbled device this September, if it wasn't planned yet? No. But it does not hurt to let them know this is a desirable, and probably very justified, addition that we'd like to have.

SD cards: Cheap, reliable, easily/widely available media that is easy to handle. Very established for compressed HD recording in many devices.

Already used in FS700 as a standard (albeit with codec at much higher compression than ProRes 422 10bit.)

I have a feeling that initial release of Odyssey 7Q will NOT support 4K compressed recording (although I secretly hope this is not true and it will support such mode...)

That leaves us with HD modes only. Then why do we need specialized SSDs that CD is promoting? SDXC card seems to be enough, let alone a "regular" SSD.

Now of course I heard Dan when he said those specialized SSDs will have cache write protection built-in, or something to this point. Well, I never lost a video on my cameras with SDXC cards, so not sure we actually need to have/pay for this functionality. And who is to say that in real-world operation, specialized SSDs will actually perform as well as their paper stats imply? No-one knows yet, including CD - until the mass production and customer usage kick in.

FS700 is a poor man's all-in-one camera, including HFR. Odyssey 7Q is definitely more affordable than any other monitor/recorder I know of, in terms of current price/function ratio, so it falls into the same category... until you add specialized SSDs. Two of CD's SSDs cost almost as much as the Odyssey device itself. From this standpoint, I advocate to get real and:

- allow the use of alternative, cheaper, approved SSDs that are known to be fast enough (either for all, or some certain modes)

- consider adding SDXC slot in the future iterations of Odyssey for compressed HD recordings, similar to Blackmagic Pocket Camera design.

Then poor man's FS700 cam will have a similar-niche monitor+recorder device that said proverbial poor man can actually use ;)

If we are NOT talking about FS700 here as source of signal, then of course all bets are off. F55 costs 4x more just for the bare camera than FS700, and still needs external recorder - perhaps in that scenario, the higher cost of specialized SSds is a moot point.

Alas for FS700 owners it does mater, IMHO.
 
Problem with 256GB is, they are just too small for the modes they are necessary - such as 4K/2K RAW capture. So realistically 512GB above is what we'll have to buy.

Dan Keaton said:
512 GB SSD $795
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However, B&H still lists those at $895 as of today: click here to humor me

x2 = $1790 (You need to buy in pairs because apparently Odyssey utilizes Raid 0 writes to keep up with HFR and RAW modes, with minimum of 2 drives required.)

This puts SSD cost at 140% price of Odyssey 7, and 80% of Odyssey 7Q. And that's just for ONE set of SSDs.
 
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PrimeHD said:
However, B&H still lists those at $895 as of today: click here to humor me

x2 = $1790

Problem with 256GB is, they are just too small for the modes they are necessary - such as 4K/2K RAW capture. So realistically 512GB above is what we'll have to buy.

This puts SSD cost at 140% price of Odyssey 7, and 80% of Odyssey 7Q.
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You are arguing for cheaper media (SD cards) by saying how expensive 512GB SSDs are, and your reasoning for using the 512GB SSD in your argument is because that's "what we'll have to buy" for 4K/2K RAW... yet the SD cards you're arguing for wouldn't be able to capture those formats anyway. So you're comparing apples and oranges here.

I just grabbed the first 128GB SDXC card that came up on B&H: Lexar 128GB

It's $150 with a promotion right now. So two of them (256GB total) is $300. So for $95 more, you get the same amount of storage in a higher performing SSD that is approved and guaranteed by the company making the recorder. That's a pretty fair deal, if you ask me.
 
TheDingo said:
So how much 2K RAW footage does 512GB (2 x 256GB SSD) hold?
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According to CD's chart (which uses two 512GB SSDs), 2K RAW at 24fps = 200 mins. So cut that in half for two 256GB SSDs, and you're looking at 100 minutes of 2K RAW at 24fps. So you could roll for almost an hour on one SSD, then roll nearly another hour of footage on the second while you unload the first.
 
jshbckr said:
you're looking at 100 minutes of 2K RAW at 24fps. So you could roll for almost an hour on one SSD, then roll nearly another hour of footage on the second while you unload the first.
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This seems pretty reasonable to me. ( and more affordable than Panasonic's P2 cards )
 
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