Odyssey 7Q: aftermarket SSDs ?
- Thread starter PrimeHD
- Start date
capt chuck
Well-known member
From their page on the web site ( http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Odyssey7/OdysseySSDMedia.aspx ) it seems pretty clear that no 3rd party ssd's could be expected to work reliably. I understand your point that maybe at lower bit rates you might be OK, but that sure sounds risky to me.
Also, the odyssey may have a handshake protocol with the ssd's that may prevent it from even working unreliably with 3rd party drives.
Also, the odyssey may have a handshake protocol with the ssd's that may prevent it from even working unreliably with 3rd party drives.
Well, we've been down that road before - including with Sony's own FX1 camera. Supposedly it required very specific, Sony-made, expensive memory to work reliably, but we hacked the cam with a combo of certain adapter+memory card which worked just fine.
Later Sony adapted/accepted this approach and the current FS700 cam comes with SD card slot as a standard.
I do understand there's no other option but to shell out for proper SSDs when we want to capture 4K, or 2K 240fps. But with compressed HD, surely some regular SSD will work fine, at 1/3 the price?
Later Sony adapted/accepted this approach and the current FS700 cam comes with SD card slot as a standard.
I do understand there's no other option but to shell out for proper SSDs when we want to capture 4K, or 2K 240fps. But with compressed HD, surely some regular SSD will work fine, at 1/3 the price?
capt chuck
Well-known member
Yes, many times. Proprietary solutions are going to be more expensive than open market solutions. Where there are open market solutions, there are also generally trade-offs. Back in the tape days the shooter could decide to use cheap consumer level tape vs. a pro-level tape and that might be just fine in some cases.
Your original question didn't mention anything about if it could be hacked to do something, rather what other ssd's would work.
In any case, my bet is the Sony cam hacking happened sometime after the camera was actually released. Folks who have had their hands on a prototype odyssey would likely not freely comment on this sort of thing, and what works or doesn't on a prototype may not apply to a production unit.
Considering that the Odyssey7 is an OLED monitor+recorder for less than SmallHD's SDI OLED 7.7 monitor-only... I'm OK with them making up a little bit of money in the SSDs. And when you start getting into the high-end SSDs (enterprise SSDs, etc) they can get a whole lot more expensive than what CD is charging.
It's a bit of a bummer, but I watched the prices of the FS700 codec and the SSDs fall considerably, so I'm OK with it. A few months ago it was going to cost $5100 for the 7Q, two 240GB SSDs, and the FS700 codec. Today, it's $3900 for the 7Q, two 256GB SSDs, and the FS700 codec. $1200 back in your pocket and an extra 32 gigs in your 7Q.
It's a bit of a bummer, but I watched the prices of the FS700 codec and the SSDs fall considerably, so I'm OK with it. A few months ago it was going to cost $5100 for the 7Q, two 240GB SSDs, and the FS700 codec. Today, it's $3900 for the 7Q, two 256GB SSDs, and the FS700 codec. $1200 back in your pocket and an extra 32 gigs in your 7Q.
I have no doubt you will be able to use high-end 3rd party SSDs, like Samsungs 840 Pro series, or the newer but not out yet, Evo series. The drives need to be able to write at more than ~520MBps. There is a guarantee on the CD drives though, so that may give piece of mind to some people, and if you are doing some shots that can't be easily repeated, than that is definitely something to consider.
I mean, CD isn't building the drives themselves, they are most likely buying a bunch of OEM drives, testing them heavily, and the ones that pass get a new label.
I mean, CD isn't building the drives themselves, they are most likely buying a bunch of OEM drives, testing them heavily, and the ones that pass get a new label.
I'm not saying he can't/won't change his mind, but Dan Keaton has said that you can only use Convergent Design SSDs in the 7Q. Trust me, I'd love if we could use the 840 Pros, I just picked up an 840 Pro 256GB a few weeks back for $192, less than half the price of the CD drives. It would be nice to use third party drives, but I'm not banking on it.
I can't see how they would stop people. I mean, the only way they could do it is if they programmed the serial number of every drive into every 7Q, or if they encrypted the the partition when not in use, and decrypted it when in use, and only allowed drives that are encrypted/decrypted to be used. But neither of those scenarios are plausible. If they place "files" on the drives, those can be copied to new drives.
No, I think they are just pushing the concept that the drives they offer have been tested, and are guaranteed not to fail. Which is enough for some people, but I'm a cheap-ass.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Friends,
I have been traveling around the United States visiting our dealers, providing Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q introductions and training.
So far, I have driven, over 7,800 miles, and I have around 2,200 or more before I get home.
These have been very long days, and I have not had the time to answer posts.
Only our SSD's will work in the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q.
There are many reasons for this.
1. Power Draw. High Speed SSD's can draw a lot of power, ours do not.
This contributes to our unit running cool.
2. Protection against power sags (lower than normal voltages) and power dropouts.
3. Protection against removal of the SSD while recording or playing back.
4. Proven, continuous write speed for the types of writes that we perform.
5. Special, firmware in the SSD controller, firmware optimized for the types of writes that we perform.
6. SSD's that have been thoroughly type tested in our units.
7. SSD's that have been individual tested to ensure reliability.
Our prices are (in the US):
256 GB SSD $395
512 GB SSD $795
These drives are not available through normal retail channels. (Our course, ours are, but this type of drive, from the manufacturer of our SSD's, does not sell this specific SSD on the open market.
You are of course welcome to try other SSD's, but for reliability reasons, our security measures will prevent the drives from being used.
This is to protect our reputation.
Other SSD's will draw more proper, will not be optimized for our types of writes, and they may not be fast enough for all modes.
(They may be fast enough for some modes, but most likely will not be fast enough for all modes.)
I am providing all of this information to be helpful, not to indicate that we have some magical "special sauce".
When one of our unit's fails to record properly, possibly due to using another type of SSD, then our reputation is harmed.
When one of our unit's overheats since the SSD's draws three times as much power as ours, then our reputation is harmed.
If one uses an SSD without robust power protection, and the battery powering our unit dies, then the non-Convergent Design SSD could be damaged and data lost. We test our SSD's in this scenario and they pass.
Our SSD's are priced lower than almost all other high performance professional media, typically by a substantial margin.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
I have been traveling around the United States visiting our dealers, providing Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q introductions and training.
So far, I have driven, over 7,800 miles, and I have around 2,200 or more before I get home.
These have been very long days, and I have not had the time to answer posts.
Only our SSD's will work in the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q.
There are many reasons for this.
1. Power Draw. High Speed SSD's can draw a lot of power, ours do not.
This contributes to our unit running cool.
2. Protection against power sags (lower than normal voltages) and power dropouts.
3. Protection against removal of the SSD while recording or playing back.
4. Proven, continuous write speed for the types of writes that we perform.
5. Special, firmware in the SSD controller, firmware optimized for the types of writes that we perform.
6. SSD's that have been thoroughly type tested in our units.
7. SSD's that have been individual tested to ensure reliability.
Our prices are (in the US):
256 GB SSD $395
512 GB SSD $795
These drives are not available through normal retail channels. (Our course, ours are, but this type of drive, from the manufacturer of our SSD's, does not sell this specific SSD on the open market.
You are of course welcome to try other SSD's, but for reliability reasons, our security measures will prevent the drives from being used.
This is to protect our reputation.
Other SSD's will draw more proper, will not be optimized for our types of writes, and they may not be fast enough for all modes.
(They may be fast enough for some modes, but most likely will not be fast enough for all modes.)
I am providing all of this information to be helpful, not to indicate that we have some magical "special sauce".
When one of our unit's fails to record properly, possibly due to using another type of SSD, then our reputation is harmed.
When one of our unit's overheats since the SSD's draws three times as much power as ours, then our reputation is harmed.
If one uses an SSD without robust power protection, and the battery powering our unit dies, then the non-Convergent Design SSD could be damaged and data lost. We test our SSD's in this scenario and they pass.
Our SSD's are priced lower than almost all other high performance professional media, typically by a substantial margin.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Great to have you back on the forum, Dan. Thanks for answering the questions. And I saw you on the Zacuto video about the Odyssey7Q, great job! Now that July is has drawn to a close, how is August looking for the 7Q release? I've got my preorder in and I'm excited to get my hands on it!
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
I would never trust paid client work on anything other than tested and certified media from the manufacturer.
You are rolling the dice otherwise.
You are rolling the dice otherwise.
I agree. Not only do we expect to get paid a certain amount for our services as shooters, but the stuff we are shooting is also incurring a lot of other time/money costs from locations to talent to crew. Paying a little more for media (especially REUSABLE media!) to ensure all of that money and effort doesn't disappear in a flash is pretty cheap insurance.
It is a simple question of what is "good enough". Do you store your video backups in a specialized dry air facility in the mountains? No? Well, ideally you should since you don't want to jeopardize your clients' work.
But hey, for most cases, storing a backup on a separate drive, ideally in a separate building, is good enough.
IMHO same with the recording media. Sony also had a list of reasons why no-one should ever think of using anything else but their own media in their cameras. Of course their media cost X times more than say SD cards at the time, so a community of people like you and me came to develop a workaround. Sony then adapted that workaround as standard.
The same will happen with CD SSds - either their listed price should come down to maybe 1.5x the common ratio of GB/$, or they'll push a lot of people to try very hard to find a workaround, which will put pressure on CD to adapt anyway.
The reason for this is whether or not there's technical necessity.
With 4K/2K RAW, we are told the bandwidth of the signal is high and no other SSDs will sustain it. That's fine.
But with 10bit 422 ProRes.. or DNxHD... ? Is there a practical evidence that these compressed formats require anything more than a regular SSD to sustain reliable recording? I doubt it. Example: SI-2K camera, which records in 2K Cineform RAW, affords any 5400rpm HDD as media, with no problem. Compressed nature of the signal has low bandwidth. Fantastic images, BTW.
Then, I'd like to compartmentalize my purchases and buy, say, two CD SSDs for 4K and 2K HFR work, and the rest of them should be "regular" consumer grade SSDs that do sustain the recording rate of compressed HD formats reliably.
Makes sense? Dan?
Or am I being a bad guy here?
But hey, for most cases, storing a backup on a separate drive, ideally in a separate building, is good enough.
IMHO same with the recording media. Sony also had a list of reasons why no-one should ever think of using anything else but their own media in their cameras. Of course their media cost X times more than say SD cards at the time, so a community of people like you and me came to develop a workaround. Sony then adapted that workaround as standard.
The same will happen with CD SSds - either their listed price should come down to maybe 1.5x the common ratio of GB/$, or they'll push a lot of people to try very hard to find a workaround, which will put pressure on CD to adapt anyway.
The reason for this is whether or not there's technical necessity.
With 4K/2K RAW, we are told the bandwidth of the signal is high and no other SSDs will sustain it. That's fine.
But with 10bit 422 ProRes.. or DNxHD... ? Is there a practical evidence that these compressed formats require anything more than a regular SSD to sustain reliable recording? I doubt it. Example: SI-2K camera, which records in 2K Cineform RAW, affords any 5400rpm HDD as media, with no problem. Compressed nature of the signal has low bandwidth. Fantastic images, BTW.
Then, I'd like to compartmentalize my purchases and buy, say, two CD SSDs for 4K and 2K HFR work, and the rest of them should be "regular" consumer grade SSDs that do sustain the recording rate of compressed HD formats reliably.
Makes sense? Dan?
Or am I being a bad guy here?
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These prices seem completely reasonable for certified branded media.
I don't see anything from Panasonic, Sony, or RED that's a better buy than what CD is charging.
It is a simple question of what is "good enough". Do you store your video backups in a specialized dry air facility in the mountains? No? Well, ideally you should since you don't want to jeopardize your clients' work.
But hey, for most cases, storing a backup on a separate drive, ideally in a separate building, is good enough.
IMHO same with the recording media. Sony also had a list of reasons why no-one should ever think of using anything else but their own media in their cameras. Of course their media cost X times more than say SD cards at the time, so a community of people like you and me came to develop a workaround. Sony then adapted that workaround as standard.
The same will happen with CD SSds - either their listed price should come down to maybe 1.5x the common ratio of GB/$, or they'll push a lot of people to try very hard to find a workaround, which will put pressure on CD to adapt anyway.
The reason for this is whether or not there's technical necessity.
With 4K/2K RAW, we are told the bandwidth of the signal is high and no other SSDs will sustain it. That's fine.
But with 10bit 422 ProRes.. or DNxHD... ? Is there a practical evidence that these compressed formats require anything more than a regular SSD to sustain reliable recording? I doubt it. Example: SI-2K camera, which records in 2K Cineform RAW, affords any 5400rpm HDD as media, with no problem. Compressed nature of the signal has low bandwidth. Fantastic images, BTW.
Then, I'd like to compartmentalize my purchases and buy, say, two CD SSDs for 4K and 2K HFR work, and the rest of them should be "regular" consumer grade SSDs that do sustain the recording rate of compressed HD formats reliably.
Makes sense? Dan?
Don't get me wrong, if we could use third-party SSDs, I'd totally pick up a couple for the 7Q. But CD's prices are nowhere near the prices that RED and Sony have on their cards. A RED 256gb mag is $2450, over $2000 more than CD's drive. And Sony's SxS cards are $1389 for 128GB, granted they have incredibly high read/write speeds.
I wouldn't mind using third-party SSDs but you're only paying about 1.6x the cost of a comparable SSD (Samsung 840 Pro 256GB = $240 on NewEgg), as opposed to RED's 10x cost.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Jshbckr,
Thank you for the "Welcome Back" and the comments on the Zacuto interview.
We are working very hard to get our Odyssey7Q ready for initial shipments.
It may be very late August, but sometime in September is looking more likely.
We now have our 7.7" OLED Monitors fully calibrated and they look great.
Since calibrations change when one changes the brightness, we have performed three calibrations, one for Dim, Regular Brightness, and High Brightness.
This allows one to change the brightness while maintaining proper monitor calibration.
And, of course, our team is working on many other improvements.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
It is a simple question of what is "good enough". Do you store your video backups in a specialized dry air facility in the mountains? No? Well, ideally you should since you don't want to jeopardize your clients' work.
But hey, for most cases, storing a backup on a separate drive, ideally in a separate building, is good enough.
IMHO same with the recording media. Sony also had a list of reasons why no-one should ever think of using anything else but their own media in their cameras. Of course their media cost X times more than say SD cards at the time, so a community of people like you and me came to develop a workaround. Sony then adapted that workaround as standard.
The same will happen with CD SSds - either their listed price should come down to maybe 1.5x the common ratio of GB/$, or they'll push a lot of people to try very hard to find a workaround, which will put pressure on CD to adapt anyway.
The reason for this is whether or not there's technical necessity.
With 4K/2K RAW, we are told the bandwidth of the signal is high and no other SSDs will sustain it. That's fine.
But with 10bit 422 ProRes.. or DNxHD... ? Is there a practical evidence that these compressed formats require anything more than a regular SSD to sustain reliable recording? I doubt it. Example: SI-2K camera, which records in 2K Cineform RAW, affords any 5400rpm HDD as media, with no problem. Compressed nature of the signal has low bandwidth. Fantastic images, BTW.
Then, I'd like to compartmentalize my purchases and buy, say, two CD SSDs for 4K and 2K HFR work, and the rest of them should be "regular" consumer grade SSDs that do sustain the recording rate of compressed HD formats reliably.
Makes sense? Dan?
Dear Alex,
We gave serious consideration to having two types of SSD's.
One which would only work for compressed.
After very careful consideration, we felt that this would probably cause problems, when one has the wrong SSD's on set for the type of shooting to be done.
And we realize that one may be planning on shooting just compressed, then find themselves needing the other SSD's.
And we realize the potential very serious problems that could occur when someone selects the wrong SSD's for a specific shoot.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
capt chuck
Well-known member
That sounds great! what a nice approach.
I'm looking forward to this product from both the monitoring and recording perspectives.
If possible, I would love to see the user manual on-line at some point to learn the menu navigation etc. prior to my unit arriving (I understand it's probably in flux as of today).
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
It is a simple question of what is "good enough". Do you store your video backups in a specialized dry air facility in the mountains? No? Well, ideally you should since you don't want to jeopardize your clients' work.
But hey, for most cases, storing a backup on a separate drive, ideally in a separate building, is good enough.
IMHO same with the recording media. Sony also had a list of reasons why no-one should ever think of using anything else but their own media in their cameras. Of course their media cost X times more than say SD cards at the time, so a community of people like you and me came to develop a workaround. Sony then adapted that workaround as standard.
The same will happen with CD SSds - either their listed price should come down to maybe 1.5x the common ratio of GB/$, or they'll push a lot of people to try very hard to find a workaround, which will put pressure on CD to adapt anyway.
The reason for this is whether or not there's technical necessity.
With 4K/2K RAW, we are told the bandwidth of the signal is high and no other SSDs will sustain it. That's fine.
But with 10bit 422 ProRes.. or DNxHD... ? Is there a practical evidence that these compressed formats require anything more than a regular SSD to sustain reliable recording? I doubt it. Example: SI-2K camera, which records in 2K Cineform RAW, affords any 5400rpm HDD as media, with no problem. Compressed nature of the signal has low bandwidth. Fantastic images, BTW.
Then, I'd like to compartmentalize my purchases and buy, say, two CD SSDs for 4K and 2K HFR work, and the rest of them should be "regular" consumer grade SSDs that do sustain the recording rate of compressed HD formats reliably.
Makes sense? Dan?
You're nt being a bad guy, you're just trying to base your argument on a straw man.
I make multiple backups on LTO5 tape as well as raid 5 and then duplicate them and yes, store a copy offsite at a climate controlled facility.