FS7: NTSC and PAL

egproductions

egproductions

Veteran
I'm filming a doc that is primarily meant for an American audience, however, a good chunk of the footage is going to be shot in Hungary (PAL). I don't have much experience filming in PAL countries so not sure how NTSC frame rates will hold up.

Can I assume that if I don't see issues/flicker in camera that my footage will be fine to shoot NTSC or should I just switch over to PAL frame rates when I am shooting over there?

Will it look normal to mix NTSC and PAL frame rates or am I going to have annoying judder issues when putting 25P in a 24P timeline?
 
My advice would be to shoot at whatever is the frame rate of your finished piece.
Plan on shooting with your shutter set to 1/50th of a second rather than 1/48th or 1/60th.
Occasionally I may need to go into clearscan mode, but for the most part 1/50th (or 1/100th) will do the trick.
As I recall, the last shoot I did in Hungary was for part of a documentary being shot 24p, and we didn't have any issues at that frame rate as long as we set the shutter to 1/50th.
 
Ok, that could be a good idea. I’ll test out different shutter speeds once i arrive and see what works. If I cant land on anything i’ll switch to PAL as a last resort.
 
Go with OnSet's suggestions and stick to 60Hz if your program is for the NTSC market. Just shoot at a 50th or 100th as suggested. i would not shoot in PAL. When we shoot in the States or Canada we use a 60th or 120th of a second with no dramas for PAL program delivery to avoid that nasty 10Hz lighting flicker.

Chris Young
 
egproductions said:
Can I assume that if I don't see issues/flicker in camera that my footage will be fine to shoot NTSC or should I just switch over to PAL frame rates when I am shooting over there?

Will it look normal to mix NTSC and PAL frame rates or am I going to have annoying judder issues when putting 25P in a 24P timeline?
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You are confusing frame rate with shutter speed. Different things amigo.
 
PAL/NTSC - actually irrelevant, post Standard Definition, but the manufacturers hold on to it, I guess because nobody has come up with a new lexicon.

Shoot your framerate according to the delivery requirements - don't change that. You may just need to tweak your shutter speed to avoid light phasing. Europe has 50Hz mains electricity, so try a 50 or 100 shutter. Fiddle in small increments until the phasing stops (usually a horizontal dark band.) It's just a relationship between Alternating Current phase, framerate and shutter speed. You can't change the AC, you shouldn't change the framerate, so you just fiddle the shutter.

You should be able to see any issues on the monitor - but be careful and perhaps throw a cover over your head, so that ambient electric light phasing isn't causing any further confusion.
 
bengiles said:
PAL/NTSC - actually irrelevant, post Standard Definition, but the manufacturers hold on to it, I guess because nobody has come up with a new lexicon.
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Here in the US, it became ATSC, but as you said, almost everyone still refers to it as NTSC. I rarely see ATSC mentioned anywhere outside of a technical paper(and that's been a while), even though when referring to digital and HD standards(and higher) it is ATSC. I guess old habits die hard.

BTW, what is the ATSC version of PAL? Or do they still just refer to it as PAL?
 
The only real issue when shooting anywhere is with conflicts between lighting and TV screens. This is very evident in the viewfinder - but is usually linked to Fluorescent and LED sources. Changing from 25 to 30fps, or 50 to 60FPS sorts it simply, but of course you will need to swap it back to get it into the end product format - which means throwing frames away or creating new ones. Most cameras also have shutter speed adjustments that can also have an impact, and of course 24fps makes it worse again.

Before you leave home, do some tests using the 'foreign' frame rates on your own flu/LED lighting to see how things impact.
 
Strictly speaking PAL and NTSC are SD terms. PAL is 576 lines flickering at 50hrz and NTSC 480 lines at 60hrz. So not only the frequency was different but also the resolution. Today HD is 1080 lines the difference stays 60hrz (USA) 50hrz (everyone else).

Run&Gun said:
Here in the US, it became ATSC, but as you said, almost everyone still refers to it as NTSC. I rarely see ATSC mentioned anywhere outside of a technical paper(and that's been a while), even though when referring to digital and HD standards(and higher) it is ATSC. I guess old habits die hard.

BTW, what is the ATSC version of PAL? Or do they still just refer to it as PAL?
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paulears said:
The only real issue when shooting anywhere is with conflicts between lighting and TV screens. This is very evident in the viewfinder - but is usually linked to Fluorescent and LED sources. Changing from 25 to 30fps, or 50 to 60FPS sorts it simply, but of course you will need to swap it back to get it into the end product format - which means throwing frames away or creating new ones. Most cameras also have shutter speed adjustments that can also have an impact, and of course 24fps makes it worse again.

Before you leave home, do some tests using the 'foreign' frame rates on your own flu/LED lighting to see how things impact.
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Sorry Paul, you're writing nonsense. There's no need to change base frame rate to avoid flicker, you need to change your shutter speed.

**EDIT**

Ignore this, I misread your first line Paul, apologies.
 
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Liam Hall said:
Sorry Paul, you're writing nonsense. There's no need to change base frame rate to avoid flicker, you need to change your shutter speed.
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No, he isn't. There's a bit of confusion between flicker and banding. Although you can get rid of flicker by adjusting shutter speed, anyone who's shot a bit of "NTSC" in a 50Hz country will be familiar with broad exposure level bands especially under older fluoros. The bands are a function of frame rate, not shutter speed.
 
Rainer said:
No, he isn't. There's a bit of confusion between flicker and banding. Although you can get rid of flicker by adjusting shutter speed, anyone who's shot a bit of "NTSC" in a 50Hz country will be familiar with broad exposure level bands especially under older fluoros. The bands are a function of frame rate, not shutter speed.
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Some older flouros would cause banding shooting at 25fps, 1/50th. On film shoots, we literally used to swap them out if we had time and budget. They don't really exist anymore, certainly I haven't had that issue since 2004. Trust me, if he shoots at 1/50th or 1/100th he'll be fine. I shoot all round the world, 50Hz countries, 60Hz countries and countries that have both. Sometimes you'll come up against a light with an odd frequency, but a quick shutter change will solve the issue - this is an issue of frequency.

**Edit**
If by banding you are referring to screen banding, that is due to the refresh rate of the screen being out of sync with your shutter speed, nothing to do with base frame rate.
 
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I just realised Paul was talking about a conflict between screens and lights, (I have edited my original post, must read slower!) not just lights! So yes, you can get banding on a screen or flickering in the lights when there is a conflict, this can happen anywhere. Walk into any office around the world and there will be a range of screens with varying refresh rates, often these will be out of sync with the lighting frequency and you'll get banding issues. Fix the banding and you might get flickering. This can happen anywhere regardless of whether you are shooting 'PAL' or 'NTSC' frame rates. It's not really what the OP is asking about though.
 
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Changing the frame rate opens a huge can of worms in post especially if it’s for broadcast. Change shutter speed, turn lights off, computer screens off or call in a bomb threat- don’t change the frame rate.



Liam Hall said:
I just realised Paul was talking about a conflict between screens and lights, (I have edited my original post, must read slower!) not just lights! So yes, you can get banding on a screen or flickering in the lights when there is a conflict, this can happen anywhere. Walk into any office around the world and there will be a range of screens with varying refresh rates, often these will be out of sync with the lighting frequency and you'll get banding issues. Fix the banding and you might get flickering. This can happen anywhere regardless of whether you are shooting 'PAL' or 'NTSC' frame rates. It's not really what the OP is asking about though.
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Has anyone tried the anti-flicker setting in the camera to deal with flicker or banding from florescent issues? I always see that and ignore it.
 
Now that is really useful!!!

Bern Caughey said:
I prefer to use shutter angle to shutter speed, & when filming 24p in countries with a 50 Hz line frequency just set the angle to 172.8*. This shutter angle also works for 48 fps slomo.

If your a iPhone user download Cinematography Electronics' FLICKERfree Calculator app. For awhile it hadn’t been updated to work with iOS 11, & I missed it dearly, but now it is compatible.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2011/08/19/flickerfree-calculator-app/

https://cinemaelec.com/flickerfreecalculator/
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Thanks for everyone’s insights. I Just had an amazing day of shooting and everything went really smooth. I kept the cameras set to NTSC (fs7, 5d iv, and gopro hero 6) and adjusted the shutter speeds and angles to match what typical PAL increments would be (as mentioned, 1/50th, 1/100tb, 172.8, etc.) I found that I just needed to be carefull to avoid some of the non standard pal shutter speed and shutter angles and also to consider what the appropriate shutter speed calculation would be when shooting at high frame rates but still wanting to avoid flicker. So for instance, when shooting 60P, i had to be careful to shoot at 1/200th and not 1/120 or 1/100 (which is slower than a 180 shutter angle equivilant)
 
Be careful with slo mo.. you won't see the flicker in the VF..only in play back as I learnt once ! I would stick to 50fps / 100fps /150fps.. S&Q in Pal countries..\Ive shot tons of 100fps in 50 Hz locations without any problems.. and 120fps in 60 Hz.. if you have time blast off a few seconds and play back in camera to check anyway.. if its just shot in natural light you will be fine.. but I wouldn't shoot 60fps in a 50hz location if there are any lights in shot personally.. better to keep in multiples of the countries Hz rate..

Your original question.. as others have said.. just shoot 1/50th shutter.. end of story..amazing still so much mis information about this ..
 
Also, has anyone said at 60hz use shutter speeds that are mutiples of 60? Likewise, in 50hz, use multiples of 50. It’s really easy. Don’t change the project target’s base settings. When in doubt, shoot in 60fps and conform in post? FCPX makes that easy by automatically conforming the footage to whatever fps the project timeline is set to. Anyway, glad everything worked out on the shoot today.
 
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