Non-existent Scarlet vs AF100/AF101

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Gary Askham

Gary Askham

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I mainly shoot self-financed short films plus the odd semi-amateur music video and I also film random events and gigs as favours for mates because I'm "the guy with the camera".

I have a 3 year old HVX200 which is now a bit long in the tooth, a Letus Extreme and a bunch of Nikon prime lenses.

It's about time I upgrade my camera and at this time the AF101 (I'm in the UK) seems to be the obvious way to go as I can use a lot of my peripherals already, such as the tripod and the lenses (are the batteries from the HVX usable on the AF101?).


My problem though is the damn Scarlet! Or Epic-S. Or Epic Lite. Or whatever it's going to be called.

I really like the AF101 - it's taken everything Panasonic has learnt from the DSLR world and put it into a video camera. Awesome. I've had a play with one and as a HVX owner was able to work it easily enough. But the Scarlet is a whole new ball-game. When it comes out it will make the AF101 (and pretty much everything else) look like a dinosaur.

I know the issues with the RED Company - we don't know when the Scarlet will be finished, we don't know how much it will cost, we don't know how easy it'll be to buy one. But if it comes out within a year and is at roughly the same price point as the AF101 then there will be a lot of AF101 owners out there with a bit of a turkey on their hands.

I'm just wondering if other people on this forum are suffering the same dilemma? What are they doing about it?
 
This conversations been going on for thre years, Not to be jerky or anything, But waiting for a camera from red could be another three years, unless you have the money for the Epic. Unless you plan on projecting your footage to big screens, I dont see the need for 3k footage. Plus the scarlet only has a 2/3rds inch sensor, which you run a hvx and letus, so yourr obviously using dof as a tool. You would need to keep your letus for the scarlet to be able to do the same shots. The scarlet is a nice cam(prototype). But the Af100 can do things the scarlet just cant. And vice versa.
 
Gary Askham said:
I know the issues with the RED Company - we don't know when the Scarlet will be finished, we don't know how much it will cost, we don't know how easy it'll be to buy one. But if it comes out within a year and is at roughly the same price point as the AF101 then there will be a lot of AF101 owners out there with a bit of a turkey on their hands.
Click to expand...

If you buy an AF100 now, you won't have a 'Turkey' on your hands when (if) the new cam from RED comes out. What you'll have is a very capable interchangeable lens, large sensor, 1080p video camera that will be a damn site better than what you are now using.
If you upgrade again 3 years from now (if your cycle is 3 years) RED will have maybe released this 'scarlet' and by then have a workable relatively bug free version for filmakers to use.
 
Rubbish...Scarlet is in the final stages of delivery out in May, on Reduser there is posted Scarlet footage of Felix http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53812&page=9 the footage is amazing, lets see AVCHD grade as well as that.

The Af101 is a great camera and will be very popular as can be seen from the take up, BUT if you want true grading then RAW is best, lm not knocking panny, lve had many in my time HVX200 HVX171 oh yes the HPX370 (a total dog of a camera) AVCHD is an ok codec but raw is better, just fact, re compression factor. The scarlet will dominate the lower budget professional market in a short while.A

All the latest block busters are being filmed on Epic, the camera that was NOT going to happen!!! well scarlet will be a truly professional cost about the same as Panny. You pay or money and get what you get.

Sony F3 wont sell once the Epic-S comes out in May as it is a far better camera and will be about the same or cheaper.

In a years time look back at this point, if you make a living then RED will be the camera of choice as a professional tool and it will be driven by client pressure too.
 
scarlet as always will be a better cam. but is it what you need? theres always a catch in everything. scarlet may look $6000 but theres more to it than just that.
 
You should prioritise what you need out of a camera? (assuming you mean the $5750 (for now) Scarlet):

Resolution = RED
Dynamic Range = RED
Size = RED

Sensor size = AF100
Choice of Lenses = AF100
Availablity = AF100
Worldwide Service = AF100
Accesories (EVF, XLRs etc) = AF100

If they were both out right now.. in stock, with the specs/price that were announced... i'd go with a Scarlet interchangeable and try to find a fast, s16mm zoom. Unfortunatly, Scarlet is not out.. and no amount of footage or noise from RED can be taken as "nearly ready". Track record is not good... even when it does launch, can we safely assume we will not be on back order?... some people have been waiting over a year for an EVF, god only knows the back order for a Scarlet kit.

If you can wait until summer... then see if RED play their hand, if not... AF100 looks like a great bit of kit. It wont loose too much value when Scarlet ships, as alot of people will not go back to a smaller 2/3" sensor.... the s35 model will cost at least $20k to have a similar feature set as AF100... so not really in the same ballpark.
 
The AF100 looks to be a sweet camera for the money. I like the m4/3 format. It is a big step up from a DSLR or a small chip video camera and at least as far as I can tell from online footage, is capable of making beautiful images when handled properly. It will be a popular camera for quite some time to come and deservedly so.
The choice is between 8 bit long GOP video with more 35mm like depth of field characteristics or 2/3" with 16mm DOF, more film like dynamic range, significantly higher resolution and far more powerful image manipulation capabilities with 12 bit RAW Bayer acquisition.
For video shooters the learning curve for raw acquisition is significant, less so for photographers familiar with raw still image capture and manipulation. The data rates and media storage requirements for Redcode are an order of magnitude greater than AVCHD. The 26 frame R3D raw Scarlet clip just posted by RED is 19 megabytes. About 700kB per frame. But any computer system that has enough power to edit AVCHD real time is capable of doing the same with Red footage with current native support in most major NLE's. My two year old Toshiba Core 2 Duo laptop can play and manipulate Red files real time at 1/4 resolution, higher than the screen display can resolve. Doing a full quality debayer, scale and export to a video format like QT or Prores is not very fast though.
My personal choice is to wait for Scarlet Cinema, the interchangeable lens version, I have no compelling reason to buy something else in the interim and I am specifically looking for a 16mm film replacement camera system.
You should educate yourself as much as possible about the options and make the best choice for you for now. It is not a forever thing either way. Cameras come and cameras go.
Either way I do think it is smart to buy into a flexible camera system that can adapt to different lens mount systems and invest in excellent quality lenses. Good glass is the heart of any photographic system. The best quality footage from the AF100 so far has been shot with PL mount cine lenses costing several times what the camera body cost.
 
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Scarlet and Epics are coming this year all things considered and I am in the same boat as you as to what to do - I am going to ride it out. I am involved with audio and have bought a few soundcards that don't get much use because the mother of all soundcards - the 'Prismsound Orpheus' was finally manufactured. Could I have saved that money instead and used it on other things - sure - but the other soundcards made me money while I waited. It's good to have backups as well so they see some use but my point being that soon enough the camera that does all you want to do is on the horizon. Why rush ahead if you seem to be a prosumer who does this and that sort of projects? That will be another £ 6000 that you could have used for the Epic S - if that is your dream cam. Epic is out of my price range and I suspect yours as well. But the Epic S I can afford at a stretch if I offload a few things and save as well.


Depends on your budget and also whether you can wait or not to be honest. If you need to work today - get the Af100. It will not be a turkey and will serve you well until it dies or you do. It is a very accomplished camera and gives you all you would want from a DSLR without the compromises. There is some concern about noise and the 8 bit nature of its outputs but it is a fine cam. Scarlet is a digital cinema product and is in another league. Everything is integrated so you can buy it and shoot straight away at hi quality in the DSLR config. It has a smaller sensor but records RAW. To me - it comes down to this


What is more important to you? Sensor size or codec. If you go RAW - YOU BETTER have a lot of storage space and one powerful workstation to edit!!!!Post production is vastly understated with RED footage. Yes NLEs can natively edit but you lose the control of a RAW package. Using REDCINE is another step in the process. Are you a pro who needs to shoot today - if you are a prosumer - wait and make use of DSLRs, DOF adaptors etc until the smoke clears. By June Sony will also have the cheaper NX offering. If you can afford to wait then remember - fools rush in. It's only a few months - many people in the world now suffer from 'I got it first syndrome'..... learn to resist the urge. Take a deeep breath, make sure you are not suffering from gear lust, ask yourself - do I need this or do I want this, will it ruin my finances, marriage etc. if so then wait - SAVE. Then ask again.Then do your research etc....... basically do what it takes to be patient and once you have thoroughly researched this - make your decision. By waiting - even if you end up going for the AF100 - you will be glad you didn't make a spure of the moment impulse buy.


Closing remarks - the next camera you buy in 2011 may be the last camera you need to buy for a few years so make it as good as you want and let it satisfy you so you never have the urge for someone elses. Kinda like choosing a marriage partner....fools rush in LOL.
 
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Unfortunately while trying continue the buzz created for the Red products the Red Camera company has made many announcements of announcements just to try to steal the thunder of new products from other companies that they saw as competition. Its happened so many times that you can't put much faith in the timing or time-lines they announce.

At the same time Red had a back order on the Red One camera for more than a year (I don't remember the exact dates but seems more like two years) and the EVF has been on back order for about a year. Plus Red used its customers as Guinea pigs while they got the software right.

I have always believed its wizest to compare what Red is actually offering at this time to what is currently being offered by others at this time with real prices. Just because Red announces something will be ready after NAB, well show me. One clip does not a camera make. They had clips from Franky when it was a wooden box as a test bed.

Right now there's an AF100 and no Scarlet, no set features (they just changed the version of HDR) no set prices, and no set delivery dates, etc. Comparing spec sheets is futile. When Scarlet comes out Sony, Canon and Panny will have something else out.

Right now there's nothing to compare. Its AF100, or Red One, or next month F3, or nothing.
 
LightMast said:
Can't people tell when they are being trolled?
Click to expand...

Regardless.. it is a decision alot of people here are trying to make. I guess RED are good at danglng that carrot close enough to keep you from investing in other gear.

We all have a cut of point though (mine being a shoot in June '11)
 
Look, it's simple -- we don't know anything about the scarlet. We know we've been told all sorts of stuff, but when I bought my Red One I was told it was going to do 4k @ 60p, and that didn't happen. They say "everything is subject to change" and by gum, they mean it. They've changed every specification, every price, every feature set, and every delivery date.

So the absolute solid truth is this: nobody who's discussing this, even knows what a Scarlet is. Period.

You don't know what it'll do. You don't know what it'll cost. And you don't know when it'll exist. Those are the facts. The only thing we do KNOW, for sure, is that they've told us that things have changed -- again.

So how can someone compare? You can't.

Should you wait? Consider this -- I bought an HPX170 in 2008. That's the same year the Scarlet was announced. I made tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars off that HPX170. I could now buy an Epic, outright, for the money that HPX170 made me. Should I have waited for a Scarlet? I can now buy a dozen Scarlets, because I didn't wait for it. When the AF100 was getting close, I sold the HPX170 -- for 80% of what I bought it for. So the HPX170 cost me, in real terms, about $1,500. Pocket change, considering what it made me, for something I used for around two years.

Should I have waited? I don't think so. Did I somehow miss out because my HPX170 didn't have raw? or HDRx? Hell no. I produced a film that got in Tribeca that was shot on that HPX170. It didn't need Raw, it didn't need HDRx, it didn't need 120fps, and it sure didn't need 3K resolution.

If someone is waiting, the only inescapable conclusion I can draw is that they can wait because they don't have anything important to shoot right now. If you've got something important to shoot, then just go shoot it! Get something, get in the game, and go. Scarlet will still be waiting for you when/if it ever does ship. There are no points awarded for loyalty. Having "faith" in a brand won't get you moved up in the line, it won't get you a higher rental rate or a higher day rate, it won't do anything for you other than waste your time and cause you a whole lot of fights on the internet.

In the time that people have been waiting for the Scarlet, I've gotten an HPX170, two GH1s, a GH2, a 7D, an HMC150 and an HMC40. And I've used, made money on, and sold off many of those -- usually for very close to what I paid for them. So the total cost of ownership was pennies. So now when getting an AF100 -- what's it really going to cost? Comparatively, pennies -- when its day is over and it's time to sell, ebay will take it off my hands, and probably for pretty close to what I'll pay for it, considering.

Seriously, guys -- ask yourself -- WHY are you waiting for something? Do you really think it's going to make any appreciable difference in your success?

Seriously -- none of this stuff means anything until you can actually use it. HDRx? Means nothing -- because you can't use it. 3K at 120fps? Means nothing, because you can't use it. Magic Motion? Means nothing -- because you can't use it.

The only things that matter are what you can actually use. Anything else is nothing more than daydreaming.

When Scarlet shows up in red.com/store, and you can actually buy it and use it (instead of waiting a year on the backorder list like the Red One or the Bomb EVF) -- that's when it's time to discuss Scarlet. Until then, how can it be considered anything other than wasted breath? Take the energy you spend talking about Scarlet, and put it instead towards learning how to write better, or actually practicing your skills on a GH2.
 
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Okay, I know this looks bad, but I didn't close the thread. Turns out another moderator did; I just happened to be the guy who got in the last word.
 
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