F3: Noise in Slog?

Pro res has its own noise issues - numerous references on forums. Try DnX. Also, as mentioned, many other variables in the prod. process for noise to be introduced. The F3 was been extensively tested and reviewed - see articles and reviews following the cameras debut at NAB. All raved about the lack of noise and the ability to put in significant gain with no appreciable noise. There was a very nice piece shot at NAB by a group of shooters and techs featuring night aerials and night exteriors in Las Vegas. take a look and compare to what you are seeing.

"I saw the Able F3 stuff a while back but thanks." I'm not sure what you mean by this - the "Able stuff" addresses much of what you don't see to understand. Abel is spelled Abel, not Able. They know as much about the F3 as anyone and have tested and written extensively about the camera and find the cameras performance matches the specs both on the bench and in the field. Their results are very clear and the camera's capabilities demonstrated well in many conditions. I don't know how you can dismiss all this as it was all shot using the same camera you have - they didn't seem to have or see any of what you are complaining about - just the opposite. They raved about the range and clean picture and posted the results.

Finally the zone system was developed in the 1930's, not twelve years ago, and has been the benchmark for how to get the most from a visual recording medium and is a method still used a goal by camera designers.

I have tested the dynamic range of my camera and its performance is not marketing hype - it has the stated DR. There are many descriptions available on how to test this yourself - but you can't just shoot some interviews and arrive at an educated answer. There is a wealth of information on CML from Geoff Boyle on how to determine dynamic range, or even better, take one of his workshops, or one offered by Abelcine. You sound very defensive and seem eager to blame the camera for what you're seeing. Your results aren't consistent with those of the many other respected professionals, like Boyle and Alister Chapman, so perhaps consider that the fault lies elsewhere. Or maybe just buy another camera.
 
Barons,

I'll jump in here for a moment because in following this I find I'm in need of some clarification.

When you shoot, are you using Sony's recommendation of exposing an 18% grey card at 38% reflectance via the camera's internal spot meter to derive your exposure, or are you using another method such as A.A.'s Zone System, etc?

Thanks,
 
Kind of emotional in your response, aren't you kid? Trying to look like a know-it-all? How boring and unproductive.

I know more than you, it seems, because I see the issues where as you are apparently blind to them and in love with some technology that you bought. Reduser has a version of you by the thousands, check it out.

If you think it has 13 USABLE stops then you could be insane or just that blinded by emotion. You also apparently have not looked at any sample I mentioned. If you can't see what I'm talking about, then you need thicker glasses. And who cares what DP says about some camera? You think you can somehow connect your position to their names to make you look good? What do you know about what they think? Lol.. weak.

Sorry I made a typo, I guess that means I'm stupid or something. Able/Abel is a sales business, not a lab, although I have been there MANY times where you likely learn everything from the internet. Their LUT sucks btw. You see, little one, they make money selling cameras, noisy or not. Grow up, seriously.

Oh I'm quite sure I could teach you more about the zone than you know. 12 years ago is about how long ago I last bothered to listen to a lecturer preach about it after it being drilled into my head in film school. It's old news for me but new to you I'm sure. Your comment makes you look pretty childish and your attitude overall won't get you or anyone else here anywhere. I seriously doubt you have done any paid professional work at all. You clearly have issues and I'm looking for answers and help, not kiddy-boy posturing.

On to the next camera and subject. And if you want to say anything more, by all means PM me instead of trying to kick sand around like a little boy. You are talking to people who likely have VASTLY more experience than you and you won't win any friends with that weak attempt to seem superior.
 
Ignoring the one useless poster here, this has been helpful in many ways.

After more testing today I simply determined the F3 has nothing like 13.5 stops of useable range but it is a good camera overall and is much better to use than any DSLR or Black Magic camera in just about any situation. If you are shooting night scenes, it appears much safer to use a cine gamma. It also appears that in many situations the 8bit codec holds up quite well and I wouldn't bother with ext. recorders unless it's a higher end spot where plenty of color grading or green screen work is going to take place. I also used an SD card adapter with an extreme pro sandisk with no trouble. I used a Kipro for 10 bit testing but saw little difference in noise and none at all in dr or color, and it has nothing to do with prores like the one poster claimed. I can't test uncompressed but can't use that much data on a set anyway so its a useless test for me.

I think s-log is necessary to get the best looking skin tones in any light however. Cine gammas do not record people the same way. Slog is ideal in sun lit locations. If you are shooting slog in a dark room, make sure you ignore the bottom 2-3 stops that you can see or measure, and do what the guys said to do above, keep faces around 35-40 as a guide. Whites should be around 70, as they said, but you can let highlights go up to your 104% zebras and still recover some of it... The area around the sun in a sunset shot is a good example of what I'm talking about here. On a movie set, light anything to 15-20 if you want it mostly noise free. If its a doc shoot, let the highlights go or suffer noise below 20ish.

S-log really takes some time to nail down. I will work with it some more and may feel comfortable sooner than I was thinking. I personally believe it will be a higher end HD camera to go to for quite some time when you can't afford an Arri. I'm out for a while but will post anything interesting i see or find.
 
Shoots56, you don't want people's skin at 35-40 IRE unless they have pretty dark skintone, 38 IRE is middle grey (i.e. Zone 5 if we're talking the zone system), caucasian skin is generally a fair bit brighter than that (say about a stop brighter) so you want to expose that more around the 45-50 IRE range (Zone 6 in zone system terms).

You can expose caucasian skin at 38 IRE and get away with it if you really need to protect your highlights, but it is about a stop underexposed, so you will see a little noise introduced to your lighter shadows that way.
 
After more testing today I simply determined the F3 has nothing like 13.5 stops of useable range but it is a good camera overall and is much better to use than any DSLR or Black Magic camera in just about any situation.

Indeed.

If you are shooting night scenes, it appears much safer to use a cine gamma.

Or just learn that the monitor is 'much brighter' than the final?


It also appears that in many situations the 8bit codec holds up quite well and I wouldn't bother with ext. recorders unless it's a higher end spot where plenty of color grading or green screen work is going to take place. I also used an SD card adapter with an extreme pro sandisk with no trouble. I used a Kipro for 10 bit testing but saw little difference in noise and none at all in dr or color, and it has nothing to do with prores like the one poster claimed. I can't test uncompressed but can't use that much data on a set anyway so its a useless test for me.

I found the onboard looks a bit compressed, sort of at the edges, kind of jpg2 look, not the punch that you get from a BMC for example.

As for grading colour and using off-board. I think it might be stronger (more malleable) than you think. Basically I assume my onset colour temp will be off - basically I don't have the onset tools to deal with maybe an office with daylight on the subject and some wonk light in the BG. I find a good way to test the colour strength of a codec is to set the camera at 5500k, shoot a grey-card with a tungsten source and then try to correct back to grey

..keep faces around 35-40 as a guide. Whites should be around 70, as they said, but you can let highlights go up to your 104% zebras and still recover some of it... The area around the sun in a sunset shot is a good example of what I'm talking about here.

I wonder if you put faces at 60 or more if you could get even cleaner? Here a wall is going to be hit by the knee curve of Slog, but using 10bit will enable uncompression of that knee - what I really need to investigate.

On a movie set, light anything to 15-20 if you want it mostly noise free. If its a doc shoot, let the highlights go or suffer noise below 20ish.

My fundamental point over many posts :)
 
"I seriously doubt you have done any paid professional work at all. You clearly have issues and I'm looking for answers and help, not kiddy-boy posturing."

My suggestion is that you spend more time listening and less time blaming the equipment. I have been a working professional in the motion picture business for 37 years - the only job I have ever had, and I have probably worked more years than you have been alive. I never went to film school - I learned from working and from the union - I was an IA Commercial DP shooting features, large format films and commercials, winning nearly every national award while you were "listening (apparently not) to a teacher preach") in some film school. I was actually using the zone system in still photography in high school which taught me a lot about tonal range. I have consulted with both Sony and Panasonic at the beginning stages of their development of their HD gear and was one of the two DPs asked to test Sony's first HD camera in the US. I worked with Sony's HD lab at Sony Pictures developing post workflows and building prototype gear.Eastman Kodak used to fly me to Rochester to consult with their film designers as I was one of their largest customers. I have shot films and videos all over the globe and made two official Olympic films. My comments on my F3 are simply based on the images I see it produces, and I find my results are in line with other DP's and professionals such as those at Abel - and yes, I respect their opinions because I know that they know what they are talking about. Abel is in the business of selling cameras - I know as I have bought many film and video cameras from them. They have also made a name for themselves in the business by adding a talented group of people who can help evaluate and advise clients on how best to use the gear they sell. You make yourself look ignorant by insinuating that experts like Andy Shipsides or Pete Abel are distorting a camera's capabilities to try to sell you something. The fact that you can't reproduce what they have been able to says more about your capabilities than their intent.

You have chosen to pick and choose who you take advice from, depending on what you want to hear and denigrate those who write comments you don't like . This is not how you learn. Even with my decades of experience I found much to learn from spending a weekend with Geoff Boyle at one of his RAW workshops. If you had not fallen asleep in the zone system class you might understand how to begin evaluating dynamic range.

You have a pissy and snide attitude and might learn something from listening to people with who know more than you do. Then you might find out how to get the noise of your images.
 
Shoots56,
I've been following this thread and trying to make sense out of it for a while to see if I could learn anything ( unfortunately not too much). I finally found your response to Barons above completely out of line. These forums are incredibly valuable, but only work if people maintain a healthy professional respect for each other. Occasionally those norms are violated and it can lead the most informed people to leave. Barons post to you was accurate and professional even if quite critical. Your response was anything but. Please temper your posts in the future.
Lenny
 
I've been bugged by noise generally, on every camera I've owned/used. from the PD150 to the F65.
F65? noisy? Alexa? noisy? yup, if you look for it, its there people. But the F65 is the cleanest I've ever seen, but its by no means noise free.

I'm one of the F35 users, shooting original Slog. And I'm pleased to say Ive come to a conclusion.

If you want ultra clean images, Noise will bug you no end ,and you will loose sleep over it.
You will never be happy with noisy blacks. I wasn't even happy with the F65.
We don't like noise, and if you bugged by noise, it will make you mad. No camera on earth is noise free in Log. Come to terms with it.

If you want super clean blacks then shoot cine or even rec709 if you that desperate and don't want huge control in post.

I owned a C300, had noise no matter how I light/exposed sold it. FS700 even worse noise, but that super slomo party trick had me happy for a month or 2, sold it. Bought an F35, shot 10bit 444 prores, cineform, uncompressed, had noise, but I shot Alexa and F65 on client requests, and wasn't that blown away by the difference in noise levels. The F65 was a lot cleaner, but still there.
The Alexa noise was only slightly less than my F35, but boy how similar the 2 were. My F35 produces just as good if not better images than the Alexa. I do mean that IMO.

So I examined Top films and TV shows shot on F35, Alexa, F65. Some had super clean blacks (Real Steal shot F35, and how awesome that film looks, CLEAN shadows) and since I have the same camera, that sent me on the maddening quest for cleaner blacks.

light shadows higher than 20 IRE? cleaner.,but less DR. But wait, Final delivery is rec709! 5-7 stops DR! so who cares right? But I want more control in post before i cram into rec709! who cares. there is more than enough info for a great image.

Hired a renowned DP, and explained my hate for noise in shadows and he just looked at me. "Do you have any idea how much shadow noise even the best film stock has? clean it in post"

Good script/idea, directing, lighting, framing, actors, camera movement, editing and post grading/cleanup is the happiness you looking for. If you realise this you will sleep like a content baby.

The F3 is one of the cleanest. get your mind off looking at shadow noise and enjoy your camera. The Alexa has more noise than the F3!

Solution? don't let shadows go below 20 IRE, or clean it up in post!
 
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IMO there is no need for any camera to be noisy if you light it right - just out the shadows at 20 and crush.

doing run and gun the goal post move a little - but this renowned dp? Sounds like turkey talk - the trouble with renowned dps is that they are too busy to really get to grips with post.

The formal cine world is too departmentalised.

This may sound strange but having exposed and done post in raw for a decade I just feel that to be the case.
If you shoot above the noise floor there is no noise - simple science.

Simply the top end digi cams - and I'm not including the f3 in that - are cleaner than film if used right - and I come from shooting 645 film not incy mincy little s35.

Often my histo literally has nothing in the bottom 20 - it is digital lighting and the ratios are tighter than film..

s
 
Baddgsx said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-F65-PACKAGE-/161129218981?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item25840cc3a5

F65 beast for sale on ebay , thought this cam was more than six figures?
Click to expand...

No, these were "only" about $75,000 new I am sure, I think they made a big point of it being less than six figures, and considerably cheaper than the F35 when it was new.

Most of the newer professional cameras are coming down in price, I think mostly thanks to RED. Whether it is a good thing or not, I am not so sure.
 
Baddgsx said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-F65-PACKAGE-/161129218981?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item25840cc3a5

F65 beast for sale on ebay , thought this cam was more than six figures?
Click to expand...

No, the F65 was very much more inline with Alexa 5-figure pricing. You can get some stunning deals on lightly used ones at the moment because the big Sony (for all it's superb performance) is proving to be wildly unpopular in the rental market (down here in Australia at least), the F55 is apparently taking the vast majority of jobs that opt for high-end Sony cams (due to size and easy of use apparently).

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Sony's top-tier camera line in the future. I suspect it'll either be scrapped entirely, or pushed up to a Vistavision or 65mm format. As it stands, the F55 undercuts it a little too thoroughly.
 
If those F65's ever get down into the fire-sale F35 price range someone will need to physically restrain me from hitting the "Buy It Now" button.
 
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