No more @#*$%!!

[USLatin]

[/indent]May I just butt in here and ask you, USLatin, exactly why do you want to put dirty language in your film in the first place?

Serious question.

What exactly is the point of doing that? What advantage do you gain? How does dirty language improve your story, your characters, your plot, your arcs, your subtext, etc etc..... and all the other things that go into a good film?

Please, explain it to me, because I have never really noticed any real benefit in using dirty words in fiction.

.

Serious answer:

I am not asking about whether I should do this or not

again, no need to discuss what people like or prefer, just hoping to figure out this "technical" profanity detail. All creative decisions have long been made on this project.

Please remember that our film isn't being discussed here, only the technical aspects regarding profanity and the MPAA. If you guys want to derail this thread, please be my guest. But if you want to make our film different, the way to do that is to send me a PM so we can discuss bringing you on as a producer (that is if you are ready to provide additional funding). I say all of this respectfully, and I am sure you won't find it hard to engage others in that interesting discussion.

:thumbup:

 

[Charli]

I just read the script Drew Barrymore just finished filming and it's definitely "R" rating all the way.

My advice - MAKE UP YOUR OWN WORD.

That's right, be original and fun.

Take out the f*** and the b.s., don't litter the story with profanity because that just takes away from the PG 13 status.

Be original - go a unique way. That's what I would do.

 

[Sad Max]

I'm not sure about the make up your own word idea. Created words to sub in for expletives all too often come off cutesy or obvious.

A Christmas Story found a pretty good solution: it's clear from tone and context that Darrin McGavin is just fountaining obscenities but the actual audio is just a stream of unintelligible gibberish.

 

[Charli]

Sad - aw, make up a word and be in the dictionary like "jiggy" - Will Smith, and "boodilicious" - Beyonce. That's rid-ic-u-lous. Crazy.

 

[Barry_Green]

Made-up words in the original BattleStar Galactica came across as profoundly ridiculous.

Made-up words in "Firefly" and "Serenity" were much more believable. And when they really, really wanted to start swearing they broke into Chinese...

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

....My advice - MAKE UP YOUR OWN WORD.

Right, Charli!

In fact, it's been done, and as long ago as 1945, if I'm right. In the film "A Walk in the Sun", I believe the soldiers frequently use the term "mother-lovin'" to refer to the unpleasantries of war.

The term had the same insinuation as its more obscene counterpart, yet without the cringe factor.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

Please remember that our film isn't being discussed here, only the technical aspects regarding profanity and the MPAA. If you guys want to derail this thread, please be my guest. But if you want to make our film different, the way to do that is to send me a PM so we can discuss bringing you on as a producer (that is if you are ready to provide additional funding). I say all of this respectfully, and I am sure you won't find it hard to engage others in that interesting discussion. :thumbup:

USLatin, with equal respect, I'm not trying to "derail" your film, and I doubt that anyone else is. But your post did tend to give the clear idea that you are in fact discussing your film, rather than just "the technical aspects regarding profanity." I mean, you did say, "I am trying to work my profanity down to PG-13 levels." You even gave us the precise number of obscenties, (17) that are currently in your film.

So, I'd still ask the question, but phrased differently. In your opinion, what exactly is the point of putting foul language in movies? What advantage does the filmmaker gain? How does dirty language improve the story, the characters, the plot, the arcs, the subtext, etc etc..... and all the other things that go into a good film?

I'm sure your time is limited right now, so I'll just leave the question open for a more opportune time.

Good luck with your project.
.

 

[thisisapocalypse]

[/indent]
What exactly is the point of doing that? What advantage do you gain? How does dirty language improve your story, your characters, your plot, your arcs, your subtext, etc etc..... and all the other things that go into a good film?
.

I totally agree, unless expertly used, offensive language ends up often being a crutch in screenwriting and can easily pull a viewer out of the story. Sure, people use lots of offensive language in real life all the time...but dialogue in a film, while it should sound natural, should not sound exactly the way people talk in real life - too little information is imparted, too slowly in real life for it to make effective screen dialogue where every word counts.

If you are using "offensive" language, you must know why it is being used, and I think if you are able to go through the screenplay and replace these words with less-offensive versions, that's probably not a good sign for the screenplay...to me this would indicate that the language was not chosen because it is absolutely right for the film/character/scene/context, etc., but rather because it's easy or "cool" or because "that's how people talk in real life."

I think in general dialogue gets much more creative and interesting when you don't lean on offensive language. It does really depend on what sort of movie you're making.

There are so many good television programs, past and present, that have had to work within the bounds of not using "offensive" language that I really do think you need a good reason when you decide to use it.

"The Office" is a prime example of not needing offensive language, and I think if it *did* have offensive language in it, the writing would be nowhere near as strong. In the same vein, consider "Monty Python's Flying Circus," while there is a bit more conventionally "offensive" language than in "The Office," the language is still mostly PG (the content surely not!) and its some of the most memorable screen/teleplay writing of all time.

"South Park" however, In my opinion makes excellent use of offensive language, but it absolutely fits the tone, and it is not used as a crutch for lack of creative writing ability. They know why they do it, and they do it well.

As far as movies go, Pulp Fiction is a good example of using offensive-language properly, whereas, say, in the American Pie series of movies, you've got just as much offensive language (and its more a problem worse with each of the sequels rather than the first film) as Pulp Fiction, but there are few times when it really fits the tone, and my estimation is that the 2nd and 3rd films would have been magnitudes better had they pulled back on 1/2 the offensive language and written some real content.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[jwing]

This thread is ridiculous. An over-analysis of "dirty" language? Many people use these so-called "dirty" and "offensive" words without thinking about it; that is how they naturally speak. I see many people here say "how does a dirty word help improve the story?" and honestly, how does any word improve the story? Language is subjective anyway. Writers shouldn't over-concern themselves with dropping or not dropping f-bombs. They should be more concerned with capturing the essence of a character. And if a character curses, that's how that person is. If he curses a lot or not at all, that says something about him, too. Removing all profanity from a film just so we can please the MPAA and studios and families and potentially make more money is even more removed from the creativity of writing--we should let our characters be themselves, if you will.

I have a friend from Europe and he works in film over there as well, and he was telling me how bizarre he thinks it is that Americans make such a fuss over language in films. It's a throwback to our religious conservatism, and I personally think that morality (and money for that matter) shouldn't dictate the direction of art.

And I know a lot of people who curse all the time. I sure as hell do. Watching a film with many adults, none of them who curse, would seem odd to me actually. I agree that a word shouldn't be used if it isn't necessary (and that goes for any word at all), but it seems no one would make the argument that a curse word could be necessary, or in fact could help develop a character and tell us something about him/her. I say capture how people actually talk! And stop thinking that the only reason someone might add a "dirty" word is to sound tough and cool. Who thinks like that in reality?

 

[thisisapocalypse]

And stop thinking that the only reason someone might add a "dirty" word is to sound tough and cool. Who thinks like that in reality?

This happens all the time. It may not be a conscious thought on behalf of the writer, but it absolutely happens.

The problem with "offensive" language for me has nothing to do with being bothered by the language itself or being "offended." The problem is that such language is all too often overused and very often does not fit the tone/context of the film in a way that conveys something about character, moves the story forward, etc. I see this, or rather, hear this in films *a lot.* I think very often it is used for the sake of using it, and that's it.

Further, because of this overuse, I would argue that the "offensive" words have become less and less meaningful over time and thus aren't the best literary devices. They just don't convey that much, they aren't shocking anymore, and are too often very imprecise modifiers, and can be grating.

For example: "I'm F***ing mad!"

What does that mean, exactly? "I'm really mad!" or "I'm superlatively mad!" or, "I'm as mad as I am when I'm having intercourse!"

I don't mean to say that there is never a place for such language, there certainly are times and places where it is appropriate. But I very much think that reliance on these words is symptomatic of overall weak writing *in general* - not in every case by a long shot. I just think you need to have a good reason to use it.

I absolutely see it misused about 10x more often than I see it used well.

I personally don't believe "because that's the way people talk" is a good enough reason to write it. So what if that's true? Why does your character say it? People say "like" and "ummm" a lot too in real life.

I think ultimately, it comes down to this: I've never seen a movie that I thought would have been better if it had more dirty language in it - but I've seen plenty of movies that would have definitely been better with less.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

Thisisapocalypse, that's an excellent argument! Your reference to the constraints of television is absolutely right, and appropriate. If we can happily watch TV despite the absence of offensive language, then why not film, too? It would seem that screenwriters for film may have something to learn from TV writers in that connection.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

Jwing, if that's the way you think of it, then fine, you go with that....while it's still fashionable...

But one part of your argument is specious. When you say, "if a character curses, that's how that person is", you're overlooking the fact that that character is a creation of you, the writer. He's not something beyond your control.

So, it's disingenuous to claim that you must write foul language because that's what your character would use. Why not do this instead? Write stories with characters who don't use foul language!

You can't tell me there aren't fascinating, complex, story-worthy people out there in the world who don't say F*** every second word! Sure, they're harder to write about. But screenwriters become famous by doing the difficult.

In any case, are gangstas, crims, lowlifes, grubs, etc etc, really worth your while to write about?

.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

Thisisapocalypse, at the risk of repeating myself, that's another excellent argument!

Kudos!

 

[Lt_Col_Wade]

In any case, are gangstas, crims, lowlifes, grubs, etc etc, really worth your while to write about?

.

I believe this thread (not the movie, as was previously mentioned) has already been derailed in the way that the OP expressly asked you to avoid, but Kurt, reading this made me physically sick. Having a particular background doesn't make any persons story not worth telling, least of all because of the language that they use. Some of the most powerful works of literature, film and art depict your so-called 'gangstas,' 'lowlifes' and 'grubs' and they are absolutely worth telling.

 

[Sad Max]

What I find peculiar is the suggestion that one's selection of story material ought to be guided by the degree to which harsh language permeates the prospective dialog.

 

[thisisapocalypse]

Some of the most powerful works of literature, film and art depict your so-called 'gangstas,' 'lowlifes' and 'grubs' and they are absolutely worth telling.

Agreed, absolutely worth telling - and yet again, perhaps the best example of this would be The Godfather, and the "dirty" language (I'm only using this term because everyone knows what it means, even though I truly am a relativist when it comes to this) when used, is used sparingly, and is used within character.

Maybe it's this: once "dirty" language draws attention to itself, that's when a failure of the writer has occurred. I can think of a myriad of films that do have "dirty" language in them where it is used so well, that it does not draw particular attention to itself. I think this has to be the goal when using it, in my opinion. However, all tastes and comfort levels vary from person to person, so what one finds "over the top," another might not even notice, I get that. This is all very subjective and linked to particular taste and the various paradigms at play here will change over time backwards and forwards, so I very much doubt there will ever be a consensus.

It really comes down to how well you can write it. I can't write "dirty" language well, so I don't. Others can and do. I just find good examples of its use to be fairly rare.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

And yet, strangely, Lt Col, you didn't contribute anything at all to the thread until now, and then only to stir up the notion that I derailed it!

reading this made me physically sick

My sympathy for your sensitive stomach.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

What I find peculiar is the suggestion that one's selection of story material ought to be guided by the degree to which harsh language permeates the prospective dialog.

Max, that comment is much more insulting to the OP than anything I could have said! You see why, don't you?

 

[Sad Max]

No. But I have this awful suspicion that you're going to tell me.

 

[Call_Me_Kurt]

No. But I have this awful suspicion that you're going to tell me.

No, I'll let you figure it out yourself. Let me know when you do.

On the other hand, I'm done with this. I think I detect the reaction of folks who are not confident in their abilities.

And I've found they're always the most difficult opponents in any debate, because they believe that they're not just defending their skills, but their integrity. Those kinds of discussions can't help but get heated.