No More Bs - Here Is What You Need!!!

One more comment about XLR cables... if you build your own StarQuad (Canare L-4E6S) with premium Neutrik connectors it'll cost you $10 in Neutriks and $0.38 per foot for the StarQuad.

So building your own 50' of this quality will cost you $29 versus $47 for one professionally made. A 25' will cost you just under $20 to build or $35 for professionally made.

So you can save money, but if you truly compare apples to apples I personally don't think it's worth it... and this also addresses the point that I don't think 20' XLR cables for $9.95 each retail are worth a crap. When you can't even MAKE YOUR OWN StarQuad cables for TWICE that price you should realize there's a reason why... and also why those other cables are so cheap... they're junk!
 
Agreed on the cables. I just needed about 15 mic cables the other year and I'm already pretty proficient with a soldering iron, so it made sense. If you only need a couple cables, it does make more sense just to buy them.

RE: schoeps/mkh50. From reading around on the net, it does seem that the mk41 is more popular than the mkh50 except in terms of humidity/rf reliability. If you're buying a kit that needs to go anywhere (without much in the sense of backups), the extra insurance of the mkh50 makes me happier. In a perfect world, I'd have 2 of each :)

One other thing about the schoeps. The damn price keeps on increasing (twice in the last 12-15 months I think).

I'm also planning to do some nature recording, and it's interesting to note that in those communities, the schoeps mics (though regarded as fine sounding mics) aren't used very much at all. The MKH series rules the roost for its robustness (and really low self noise).
 
Jon Oskar said:
Thats just what you would expect to hear walking in to a pro audio store!
Dude! there are not loads of different things you can get when you are looking for the cheapest yet acceptable quality, in fact there are only few options. The worst buys i ever did were recommendation by the pro store sales rep. And this is after years of buying.
Click to expand...


I would suggest that if the worst buys you ever did were at a pro audio store that you don't go to that store.

There are loads of different things you can buy for cheap. You want a short shotgun for under a grand? Here's a list:

-Sanken CS-1
-Audio Technica AT4073a
-Sennheiser ME66/k6 combo
-Sennheiser MKE300
-Audio Technica AT897
-Audio Technica AT835b
-Audio Technica AT815b
-Audio Technica AT4071a
-Rode NTG-1
-Rode NTG-2
-Beyer Dynamic MCE86

That's just a short list I came up with off the top of my head without actually looking at other manufacturers that I don't deal with on a regular basis. Now, that's a big list for someone who really doesn't know what they want. Picture this. You run a shop, and someone comes in to your shop, and comes in with a list similar to the above (yes this has happened to me..on several occasions), and the person wants me to "contrast and compare all of these mics so they know which one to buy" (sounds like a final exam essay question from college). Well, guess what, that is going to take a really long time of me explaining a lot of things to people that usually have no idea what I'm talking about. I usually narrow it down to two or three and let the customer pick which one they want. Even then, many people who don't know about mics (which is a lot of people), get confused, and don't know what they are listening to. So, at this point I just have to tell them "you want such and such mic", and call it a day. I always tell people to rent the mics and actually use them like they want to use them, rather than listen to here in the shop. Usually they don't want to.

If you want a list of stuff, we have actually put a link on our website with some of the most popular gear that people get from us for this type of stuff. Here's the link. *****NOTE***** I'm not trying to sell any of you anything. Just take it as a list of gear, and that's it.

Here's the url http://www.coffeysound.com/specials/fieldspecials.html

-Dave
 
I like the link you posted but I gotta' respectfully disagree with the list posted above... I think that's complicating it more then it has to be. I wouldn't classify the 835 or 815 as short guns (or long guns for that matter)... I don't know why anybody would buy either... and the 4071a is definitely a long gun. But if I was a video guy looking for sound and somebody sent me home with an 18" long 815... and then I later found out about the 9" long (and WAY better sounding) 4073a... I'd throw the 815 like a javelin through the window. (and it would probably fly like one):happy:

Going by THAT list I'd say if you have almost no money you only need to decide between the 897 and the NTG-2 (I'd probably pick the Rode, but both of these mics allow phantom OR battery) and if you have TWICE that much to spend then I'd get the 4073a unless you want a short gun that's good for interiors and not as good for exteriors... then it's the Sanken*.

I don't know how you'd handle a customer that comes in and says they want to spend between $200 and $1000 on a shotgun... I'd pull my hair out, but I could still put them in order of worst to best based on that... and I'd simply tell them the truth... The more you spend the better mic you get*.:thumbsup:


*In my humble opinion a 4073a, which is EXCELLENT for exteriors... combined with an Oktava hyper, which is pretty damn good for interiors... makes more sense then the CS1.

Initially the CS1 got a lot of attention because Sanken has an excellent design with their shotguns. They have very little "tail" compared to some other guns and that characteristic has been praised extensively. The only downside is that the CS1 doesn't have any kind of reach like it's big brother, the CS3e, or anywhere near the reach of the 4073a... which is hundreds cheaper while still having a warmer (not boomy... more natural) bottom end. The CS1 was designed specifically for on-camera ENG situations where a mic that falls somewhere between a hyper and a short gun is desireable. It's this hyper-cardioid quality that also makes it work better then many guns indoors... but it's this SAME pattern that reduces the reach outdoors. It's almost like Sanken invented a new pattern with this mic... which is neither one thing or the other... and while it's a great mic NO DOUBT about that... I think that for the same price a combination of two solid performers is a better bet.
 
$200 to $1,000, huh? I'd handle it like this. Up to $500 I'd sell them the best mic I could, hopefully getting them to the 4073a. After $500 I'd STILL put them in the 4073a and would then start outfitting them with a good Rycotte wind system (blimp, dead cat, shockmount). I think controlling ambient noise is as important, if not more important, than the choice of mic. If they had $1,500, I'd put them into a $1,000 mic, leaving at least $500 for noise control. A fancy $1,500 mic left bare to the wind (even every day breeze, air conditioning, etc.) will still suck. I'll get better results with a properly placed and protected 4073a (hell, I think I could get better results with a properly placed and protected 897).

EDIT: Oh, and I of course would force them at gun point to get the Oktava hyper.

Matt
 
I do the exact same thing, but people end up running around in circles going "well, I could spend a little more and get a great mic, or spend a little less and get a so-so mic, and put that money towards something else". Then again, I'll get people that come in and say, "I want a 4073a", and it's easy. I can only point people in the right direction.

That list of mics I came up with isn't exactly everything I would sell to someone, but I have people ask about them, so I need to know of them, and a little about them. It's my job. If people want to know their options, they need to know whats out there.

-Dave
 
Hi guy's, what can i say, what grate in depth advice, and how nice to see what can be accomplished when people come to gather, i will need a little time to digest, but want to thank you for your extensive lists, i will get back to you soon. Any one with a different or a variation of this list, feel free to join the debate.

best

Jon
 
First of all thanx guys for yore effort, i think we are almost "there" in compiling the firs proper "indy sound shopping list", that at least i have come across. Now i want to see if we can refine it further.
I tried cutting down and adding some to MattinSTL original list based on further replies. What do you guys think? Can this be cut down any further? Is there something obvious missing? What about a cheeper mixer? Do we really need the 2nd softy, as we be using the Octava indoors? Are the prices we have here the best? Why do the SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 combo prices wary so much between the different resellers? What is the MHz thing that needs to be considered when buying the SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2?

best regards

Jon

AUDIO TECHNICA AT4073A (OUT DOOR MIC)$549
OKTAVA MK012A (OR MC012A) WITH HYPER CAP (INDOOR MIC) $165

SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 COMBO: (WIRELESS KIT) $799.95
COUNTRYMAN B3 WITH ALL CAPS: (LAWALIER MIC) $206.50

PSC DV PROMIX 3 (FIELD MIXER) $465.00
SONY 7506 (HEADPHONES) $99

GITZO 7680C (BOOM POLE) $219
K-TEK KSSM WITH SOFT BANDS: (SHOCK MOUNT) $109
RYCOTE 12CM MH SOFTIE: (WIND SCREEN)$110

50' CANARE STARQUAD XLR (CABLES) $47

PORTABRACE AR-7 (BAG) $199

TOTAL $2968.45
 
Looking good to me! But I would get the full Rycotte blimp system. You may not need it ALL the time, but when you do, you really do. That said, once you use it, you'll never want to be without it. So that system will run about five to six hundred but includes softie and shock mount.

Also, for boom poles check out the ones made by K-Tek.

Matt
 
Just so you know... I normally suggest the K-Tek poles to everybody also. My own pole is a K-Tek Avalon Graphite which was $400. I just think at this price point that you have two economy choices... the K-Tek KE110CC (Aluminum Avalon) for $219 from B&H... which gets you 9' of reach in a pretty lightweight aluminum pole WITH internal coiled cabling... which is nice... BUT the Gitzo pole I suggest instead is carbon fiber and it does NOT have cabling, but it goes THREE AND A HALF FEET farther... and in my experience I've often wished for a longer boom. That's why I suggested the 7680c for this price point.

I agree that the full blimp systems are the best solution for windprotection, but the BBG/Jammer is almost as good for your hyper and I'd be tempted to try getting by with a Softie until you get in the range of $1K shotguns... and THEN go to full blimp systems... otherwise you'll be putting a $500 mic in a $500 blimp.

The EW100ENGG2 combo set is $599, not $799... and I'm not going to repeat any of the exact same advice over again, but let's just say it will cost you to not pay more attention to my list as it's written.

Let me add that being a newbie you also need to balance the quest for the absolute lowest possible prices with whatever level of professional service you may later require from a dealer... so if you find a really cheap price on something and they DON'T do anything for us here at DVXuser you probably shouldn't go to that great of lengths to promote their store. I'll tell you right now that I'm not trying to lay this out so simply that a 4 year old can get it... you should take it upon yourself to do the tiniest bit of legwork in any area where I don't spell it out 100%... 'nuff said?
 
My kit consists of the following:

Edirol R-1 digital recorder with 1GB SDRAM
Audio Technica M55 shotgun mic
Sony noise cancelling headphones
Generic brand 9' boom pole with shockmount
K-Tek windscreen (looks like a long haired hamster)

Total cost on all of this was about $1K. I have done a bunch of indoor and outdoor tests with this setup and the quality is extremely good.
 
MattinSTL

Im talking about the EW100ENGG2 combo that includes the but plug.
(What is the MHz thing, why dose the system come in three different versions?)
Just to recap- the BBG/Jammer is crucial to a basic kit?
 
There is only one EW100ENGG2... any other kit will be listed as something else. We've been talking about the same kit.

The MHZ thing is one of 3 frequency blocks because depending on where you live there may be a tv station or some other major UHF problem that warrants making a choice of frequency block that is NOT in your area. Fortunately the G2 systems have a pretty wide band of choices... but a tv tower or digital transmission tower MAY completely cover that ENTIRE band! That's why it's a good idea to check.

The reason I say the BBG/Jammer is crucial to the entry kit is IF you are going to get the Oktava it's nuts to not just start off with a damn good windprotection solution. I use the same BBG/Jammer on my AKG 480b system that I use on the Oktava... the fit is tight, but it works... and you'll find that MOST mics fall between 19-21.5mm so any hyper, cardioid, or omni (yuck... but you never know) that you get later will be able to use the same BBG/Jammer... and the main point is that it's only around $60-70 more then a Softie but there is NO comparison in performance!

Actually MattC is 100% right that full blimp systems are the way to go... and as long as the length works out you can use different mics in those also. The only reason I offered an alternative is because when a guy is just getting into sound and he's only gonna' dump a grand on the initial step he probably doesn't want to lose $500-600 on just a blimp, mount, jammer... instead of around $210-240. So if you're comfortable with pushing your budget to a full blimp system then you should... they are by FAR the best.

It just happens that the BBG/Jammer has about 85-90% of the effectiveness of a full blimp system at a third of the cost... and the only reason it's even an option is 'cause hyper, cardioid, and omni heads are so short that they allow the physics of a little mesh ball to support itself on the end of the mic.
 
Is there a resource on the net to find out what frequencies are being used in a particular geographic location? In the real world how do you deal with this, do you need three sets of
G2's in order to be covered???
 
Any one want to challenge this list, before i repost it in a thread, "INDY SOUND SHOPPING LIST - LOOK NO FURTHER"

Just a reminder, what we are trying to find out is the lowest price, yet acceptable quality sound kit, that cover the main sound requirements of an average film. If you post a challenge keep it relevant to this list and what we are trying to achieve here!!!

Many thanx

Jon

AUDIO TECHNICA AT4073A (OUT DOOR MIC)$549
OKTAVA MK012A (OR MC012A) WITH HYPER CAP (INDOOR MIC) $165

SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 COMBO: (WIRELESS KIT) $599
COUNTRYMAN B3 WITH ALL CAPS: (LAWALIER MIC) $206.50

MIXPRE (FIELD MIXER) $665
SONY 7506 (HEADPHONES) $99

GITZO 7680C (BOOM POLE) $219
K-TEK KSSM WITH SOFT BANDS: (SHOCK MOUNT) $109
RYCOTE 12CM MH SOFTIE: (WIND SCREEN)$110
RYCOTE 19/20MM BBG: (WINDSCREEN SMALL) $125
RYCOTE WINDJAMMER FOR BBG: $60


50' CANARE STARQUAD XLR (CABLES) $47

PORTABRACE AR-7 (BAG) $199

TOTAL $3202.50
 
I know that someone mentioned this just briefly, but what about considering the idea of rentals in this equation. Now I know this depends on where you live and what's available to you, but let's for arguments sake say there is a rental shop within reasonable driving distance. Would it not make sense for the newbies to purchase what they can afford (by the way, the list is looking pretty good, despite the subjective nature of this stuff) and rent the other items based on what the scenes, or project calls for. The great thing about renting is that you can see what works well in certain situations without dishing the money out blindly. For example, I have what I would consider an okay kit, but it's still missing some key components. I rent what I don't own yet, and I pick and choose based on the situations I'll be in. For example, on a recent film I wanted full control in post over several microphones. So I rented the Fostex PD-6 and could record discreetly to six channels. It was great. But i could never shell out the 10K to buy it. Same with mics. I can't afford to but several top of the line microphones that I know will sound great, so I rent them when I really need them. Same for the Rycote stuff. Rent the full systems when I need them, use the softie in less critical situations.

Again, I know renting isn't for everyone, especially if you are a run and gun, film when you can indy filmmaker. But those who have that option of planning things out, and looking at what you'll actually be recording, it seems to me that renting offers a good alternative to purchasing all of these components. And best of all, the rental company maintains it, and will even come on site sometimes to help with a problem.

I used 5 Trams on a project recently and there is no way I would have been able to buy those.

But the list is certainly useful for where to start, so people can avoid making mistakes. I'm all for it. Like I said, it can be subjective when you compare apples to apples, but you can certainly revent people from walking into Wal Mart and purchasing a "video" mic. I look forward to seeing what is on the final list.

One other point, make sure to include the adapters on the list. Get as many as you can afford of all types. You'll be amazed how handy they can be. You never know when you're going to have to come up with a creative solution for a problem. It helps to be prepared.

Steve
 
Some good points here stevesherrick, but can you specify, when you say adapter, as to us beginners it don't mean much. Could you give a suggestion what to get, and maybe why?
 
I think he means like XLR > 1/4" TRS, or XLR > mini-jack, and stuff like that. You shouldn't worry about that until you start to build a kit... so then you'll know what all has to connect to what. Many aspects of the kit, such as the EW100ENGG2 will supply all the adapter cables you need.

I say wait and see what you need to adapt before you start buying adapters... I may very well be the KING of buying stuff that I quickly decide I didn't need. Trust me it sucks.
 
Jon Oskar said:
Any one want to challenge this list, before i repost it in a thread, "INDY SOUND SHOPPING LIST - LOOK NO FURTHER"


GITZO 7680C (BOOM POLE) $219
Click to expand...


I would change that to the KTek KE110cc for $250. Gitzo poles don't last, and I don't recommend them to anybody. Besides that, your list looks like a nice list for a starter package.

-Dave
 
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