Got the book, thanx. If you guys think we have exhausted this subject im fine to let it go. Just thought it might be nice to have an alternative list just as there is the DVX, Z1 and XL2 option. But maybe there isn't and than in the very least we have come to that conclusion, which in its own right is a grate achievement. Well done!!!
No More Bs - Here Is What You Need!!!
- Thread starter Jon Oskar
- Start date
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
I gotta' agree with the context of Dave and Wabbit's posts above... Jon, you may not believe this, but a new guy comes in every couple weeks and finds a different way to phrase the same basic questions... and then we build a thread like this one... I even made a joke of it in a recent thread shortly before you joined (or started posting anyway).
The gist of the joke was that you can give the exact same advice a hundred times and a new guy won't believe it until you attach his name to the front of the same advice. Then, even though it's the EXACT sentence that's in a post directly over it... the person feels enlightened.
Everything that's in this thread could have been found with simple searches. It's a matter of deciding where you want to put your personal priority for sound. Let's say you think, "hmm, I need some headphones first"... then you go to search and type "headphones". It wouldn't take more then 5 minutes to confidently spend your hundred bucks for some 7506's... and so on and so on. I've even tried to put my first list in the most logical order... if you look at it there's no point in owning the items further down the list until you have the gear that preceeds that stuff.
I don't have any interest in building a "super thread" where we just do the same basic breakdown of each component of a list and why one person thinks one thing is better then another. This has already been done in specific threads to those items.
What's happening NOW is this thread is breaking down... it's becoming dilluted from your original idea because of what I said would happen from the very beginning... Nobody wants to accept a given answer unless they personally are comfortable with that answer. So they look for more answers (or more lists in your case) until they can compile a list (or find the individual choice) that they wanted to make anyway.
I'm guessing that if somebody posts what appears to be a fairly comprehensive list but includes the NTG-2 instead of the 4073a that you'd think, "hmm... why spend $550 on a mic when I can get close to that result at HALF that... or CAN I? Hey let's debate this!"
Before that happens I could direct you to any one of a hundred shotgun threads where we already have! It's beginning to seem like the fun part is to get a lot of "work" from people so that you can make all your choices without ever venturing even ONCE into the archives on anything. That turns me off just a little.:huh:
If other more experienced (or less experienced) guys have alternate lists for you that's cool... they should post 'em... but just be true to yourself and realize that you MIGHT be subconsciously looking to compile a list of all the cheapest components from each list anyway. After you get 10 pages of lists I'm sure you could finally end up with a list that doesn't include ONE item that I'd ever buy myself.:thumbsup:
Personally I still find this to be an interesting thread and I'd like to read what others think would be a good list like the others posted, but there's no way I'm going to debate the items I suggest. Ultimately the gear you get doesn't have to make me happy... it's got to make you happy.:grin:
The gist of the joke was that you can give the exact same advice a hundred times and a new guy won't believe it until you attach his name to the front of the same advice. Then, even though it's the EXACT sentence that's in a post directly over it... the person feels enlightened.
Everything that's in this thread could have been found with simple searches. It's a matter of deciding where you want to put your personal priority for sound. Let's say you think, "hmm, I need some headphones first"... then you go to search and type "headphones". It wouldn't take more then 5 minutes to confidently spend your hundred bucks for some 7506's... and so on and so on. I've even tried to put my first list in the most logical order... if you look at it there's no point in owning the items further down the list until you have the gear that preceeds that stuff.
I don't have any interest in building a "super thread" where we just do the same basic breakdown of each component of a list and why one person thinks one thing is better then another. This has already been done in specific threads to those items.
What's happening NOW is this thread is breaking down... it's becoming dilluted from your original idea because of what I said would happen from the very beginning... Nobody wants to accept a given answer unless they personally are comfortable with that answer. So they look for more answers (or more lists in your case) until they can compile a list (or find the individual choice) that they wanted to make anyway.
I'm guessing that if somebody posts what appears to be a fairly comprehensive list but includes the NTG-2 instead of the 4073a that you'd think, "hmm... why spend $550 on a mic when I can get close to that result at HALF that... or CAN I? Hey let's debate this!"
Before that happens I could direct you to any one of a hundred shotgun threads where we already have! It's beginning to seem like the fun part is to get a lot of "work" from people so that you can make all your choices without ever venturing even ONCE into the archives on anything. That turns me off just a little.:huh:
If other more experienced (or less experienced) guys have alternate lists for you that's cool... they should post 'em... but just be true to yourself and realize that you MIGHT be subconsciously looking to compile a list of all the cheapest components from each list anyway. After you get 10 pages of lists I'm sure you could finally end up with a list that doesn't include ONE item that I'd ever buy myself.:thumbsup:
Personally I still find this to be an interesting thread and I'd like to read what others think would be a good list like the others posted, but there's no way I'm going to debate the items I suggest. Ultimately the gear you get doesn't have to make me happy... it's got to make you happy.:grin:
MattinSTL
I hear you, but let me respectfully disagree with you, as i think i have really dug in to those archives as well as read hundreds of pages on sound on the internet in general, and i have NOT come across any kind of comprehensive list. Anyways if there are just hundreds of threads with this list, why didn't you guys just copy and past it like a week ago and we could have ended this discussion right there.
I am not trying to find another and another and another just for the sake of it but at present we really only got this one list you compiled. Just as i said earlier if i would compile a camera list and i would only mention the DVX, others would be like well what about the Z1 and that would be a valid point. When we started this thread, many here stated things like "oh it makes no sense" , " its impossible" to compile a list of this sort, as there are sooooo many ways to go, yet we only seem to have one.
If the whole idea of doing low budget sound, turns you guys off and you regard it as something base and below you, it is a little mind boggling why you would bother posting on a DVX forum V.S. a real cinema forum where there are loads of people that not only understand how you fell but that will agree with what you say. Why the antagonism and why do i constantly have to debate the validity of this thread, i mean it is not like anyone is being forced to take part. Why don't the rest of you, rather than spend 5 minutes writing me a post telling me what a stupid thread this is, just compile a list, i mean after 7 pages of thread we might have come up with several interesting options, or not. I think some good man once said if you want to learn, don't be afraid to ask. Also it used to be common knowledge for hundreds of years that the earth was flat, this just as a footnote to the absoluteness of any ruling opinion.
best regards
Jon :thumbsup:
I hear you, but let me respectfully disagree with you, as i think i have really dug in to those archives as well as read hundreds of pages on sound on the internet in general, and i have NOT come across any kind of comprehensive list. Anyways if there are just hundreds of threads with this list, why didn't you guys just copy and past it like a week ago and we could have ended this discussion right there.
I am not trying to find another and another and another just for the sake of it but at present we really only got this one list you compiled. Just as i said earlier if i would compile a camera list and i would only mention the DVX, others would be like well what about the Z1 and that would be a valid point. When we started this thread, many here stated things like "oh it makes no sense" , " its impossible" to compile a list of this sort, as there are sooooo many ways to go, yet we only seem to have one.
If the whole idea of doing low budget sound, turns you guys off and you regard it as something base and below you, it is a little mind boggling why you would bother posting on a DVX forum V.S. a real cinema forum where there are loads of people that not only understand how you fell but that will agree with what you say. Why the antagonism and why do i constantly have to debate the validity of this thread, i mean it is not like anyone is being forced to take part. Why don't the rest of you, rather than spend 5 minutes writing me a post telling me what a stupid thread this is, just compile a list, i mean after 7 pages of thread we might have come up with several interesting options, or not. I think some good man once said if you want to learn, don't be afraid to ask. Also it used to be common knowledge for hundreds of years that the earth was flat, this just as a footnote to the absoluteness of any ruling opinion.
best regards
Jon :thumbsup:
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
So you're not wanting a bunch of lists which each contain individual items that are each debated at length but rather you'd like us all to debate those individual items here... and then work out one final list from that? Perhaps I misunderstood.
I was simply saying that to end up with a bunch of lists... each with various debatable items... and then have various posts actually debating those items... wouldn't be much different then the threads which already exist and debate those items. While those other threads are not "list" threads... they are "shotgun" threads or "boompole" threads... and so on. And within those threads there is lively debate on each individual item... so in my opinion, to ask everybody to compile a list for convenience... and then have debates on individual items for convenience... is debatable in itself.
I guess I just feel stupid for taking 25 minutes to put up a list and then 2 or 3 other people do it also... and even then it's like... great, now everybody else do it too... and then let's debate the differences!
Sound and the value of each aspect of sound are subjective. Deciding WHERE to focus your budget is also subjective. MattC would say you should spend your first $600 on windprotection and mount... and he could be right... I say buy a 4073a and cheaper protection... I could be right... somebody else might say get an NTG-2 and even cheaper windprotection and mount... and they could be right. These are choices that ultimately YOU have to make anyway... and God knows we have threads ALL the time where people want comprehensive answers and you never see another post from that person. It make me wonder if after I lay out the instructions for $3K worth of sound gear if they just bought an mke-300 and dissappeared with it.
So has this been discussed before? Do you REALLY want me to take some time to track down a dozen threads that are basically the same thing?
I was simply saying that to end up with a bunch of lists... each with various debatable items... and then have various posts actually debating those items... wouldn't be much different then the threads which already exist and debate those items. While those other threads are not "list" threads... they are "shotgun" threads or "boompole" threads... and so on. And within those threads there is lively debate on each individual item... so in my opinion, to ask everybody to compile a list for convenience... and then have debates on individual items for convenience... is debatable in itself.
I guess I just feel stupid for taking 25 minutes to put up a list and then 2 or 3 other people do it also... and even then it's like... great, now everybody else do it too... and then let's debate the differences!
Sound and the value of each aspect of sound are subjective. Deciding WHERE to focus your budget is also subjective. MattC would say you should spend your first $600 on windprotection and mount... and he could be right... I say buy a 4073a and cheaper protection... I could be right... somebody else might say get an NTG-2 and even cheaper windprotection and mount... and they could be right. These are choices that ultimately YOU have to make anyway... and God knows we have threads ALL the time where people want comprehensive answers and you never see another post from that person. It make me wonder if after I lay out the instructions for $3K worth of sound gear if they just bought an mke-300 and dissappeared with it.
So has this been discussed before? Do you REALLY want me to take some time to track down a dozen threads that are basically the same thing?
wabbit
Evil has Ears
I think one of the most important points is that not everybody is doing the same thing with their audio gear. To use wireless as an example: with something that is being shot for TV broadcast (documentary, commercial, etc) a properly used G2 is plenty fine for television speakers. By the final mix, it is hard to tell the difference between the Sennheiser wireless or some Lectros. On the otherhand, if someone intends to have their product broadcast in a theatre then the G2 become a problem. Nothing brings out substandard audio better then a theatre's sound system.
Anyways, as I am sure Dave Fisk will tell you, each customer has a slightly different set of needs and areas where they are willing to make compromises.
Don't forget even the best equiped, most experienced soundman will have to resort to ADR at some points, the question is when and how much.
Best
Anyways, as I am sure Dave Fisk will tell you, each customer has a slightly different set of needs and areas where they are willing to make compromises.
Don't forget even the best equiped, most experienced soundman will have to resort to ADR at some points, the question is when and how much.
Best
OK I will repeat it again, what i wanted, if this even exists, are two maybe three list of equal merit for a "indy sound kit' to be used for an indy feature film. We are basing the kits requirements on what could be considered the average sound situation and something almost all films have to deal with. (dialog interior, dialog exterior, wired and wireless) to say that there are completely different kits needed is like saying every can needs its special can opener???
Any one that thinks it makes more sense to get the wind protection before you get the mic, well what can i say, thats like buying the cart before you got a horse.
I really don't understand what the big deal is, if you would ask me about anything i have expertise in i would at least be able to offer you a second option that i would think would be equally good, although i didn't feel it was my first choice. Just as the DVX and the Z1 even if not the same they both are cameras in the same league but slightly different qualities. I could tell you, that i chose the DVX over the Z1 as it has certain options which makes them more suitable for my kind of work.
Even better i would say, this, this and this film are all shot with this camera, thats why i think it is grate.
I wonder why you guys get annoyed that anyone challenges yore opinion, as in my mind all it does is testing and reaffirming what is right and flushing out what is wrong.
Weather the earth is round or flat is not an opinion, its a fact.
I wish you guys could be a little more constructive rather than this constant condescending talking down as if there are only you that can comprehend and understand the world of sound.
I feel like im talking to a Hasselblad owner, a painful experience :thumbdown
Any one that thinks it makes more sense to get the wind protection before you get the mic, well what can i say, thats like buying the cart before you got a horse.
I really don't understand what the big deal is, if you would ask me about anything i have expertise in i would at least be able to offer you a second option that i would think would be equally good, although i didn't feel it was my first choice. Just as the DVX and the Z1 even if not the same they both are cameras in the same league but slightly different qualities. I could tell you, that i chose the DVX over the Z1 as it has certain options which makes them more suitable for my kind of work.
Even better i would say, this, this and this film are all shot with this camera, thats why i think it is grate.
I wonder why you guys get annoyed that anyone challenges yore opinion, as in my mind all it does is testing and reaffirming what is right and flushing out what is wrong.
Weather the earth is round or flat is not an opinion, its a fact.
I wish you guys could be a little more constructive rather than this constant condescending talking down as if there are only you that can comprehend and understand the world of sound.
I feel like im talking to a Hasselblad owner, a painful experience :thumbdown
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
Dude... I could care less if you agree with my opinions or not... I even took the time to PM you on something you were previously confused about just so you... a total stranger... could save an extra $90. All I'm saying is I can't tell if you plan to implement anyone's advice anyway... because you just want more and more answers on top of already good answers. It's no big deal... where you think I care about my opinions being followed is just like you thinking that anybody here wants to be "the man" according to a new guy and total stranger. I don't think you understood why others said that was condescending and I don't think you understand why I say it's rude to get several great answers and still just keep asking for more and more of the same via everyone's experience.
Look at the VERY VERY RECENT thread from Draccan... it's the same thread as you have here and I'll bet you never saw it even though it's only 2 or 3 weeks old... and if you stay a member for a while you'll see other new guys coming in asking the same questions and YOU'LL be the one directing them to THIS thread? Don't believe me? Hang out for a while.
Look at the VERY VERY RECENT thread from Draccan... it's the same thread as you have here and I'll bet you never saw it even though it's only 2 or 3 weeks old... and if you stay a member for a while you'll see other new guys coming in asking the same questions and YOU'LL be the one directing them to THIS thread? Don't believe me? Hang out for a while.
MattinSTL
This is the first sentence of the firs post for this thread-
"Hi everyone
I decided to start this thread after reading Draccan's thread
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=32875
as it made several interesting points, not just about sound but about how sound questions are handled. "
Anyways thanx for taking the time here, I do appreciate it!
best
Jon
This is the first sentence of the firs post for this thread-
"Hi everyone
I decided to start this thread after reading Draccan's thread
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=32875
as it made several interesting points, not just about sound but about how sound questions are handled. "
Anyways thanx for taking the time here, I do appreciate it!
best
Jon
MattC
Veteran
I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but just to be clear...
What I (MattC) recommended was, if you have to do this piecemeal, to spend up to $500 on a mic - the 4073a. I then recommended that the NEXT $500-600 be spent on wind protection and mounts. And THAT I stand by. Give me a decent mic on a boom with great wind gear and a little time to tame the environment before shooting and I can deliver you clean sound (or at least as clean as your camera can record). You can go out and buy $1,500 mic and record it into $$$$ soundesign mixer/recorder but if you can't block out ambient sound (moving air) and place the mic in the right spot, it'll sound like ****.
And Jon, if you feel THAT'S putting the cart before the horse, you still have much to learn... By the way, the reason your getting these reactions is because had we known this was simply an exercise in mental masturbation, none of the folks in this thread would have ever taken part. People were trying to help you make purchase decisions, not wax philosophical about sound gear....
Oh and one other thing, it's PUTTING the horse before the cart. If you needed a particular cart, say to carry a larger amount of passengers, you would certainly purchase the cart first, and then find the right horses to pull it. Not that that means anything, I just wanted to bust your stones...
Matt
What I (MattC) recommended was, if you have to do this piecemeal, to spend up to $500 on a mic - the 4073a. I then recommended that the NEXT $500-600 be spent on wind protection and mounts. And THAT I stand by. Give me a decent mic on a boom with great wind gear and a little time to tame the environment before shooting and I can deliver you clean sound (or at least as clean as your camera can record). You can go out and buy $1,500 mic and record it into $$$$ soundesign mixer/recorder but if you can't block out ambient sound (moving air) and place the mic in the right spot, it'll sound like ****.
And Jon, if you feel THAT'S putting the cart before the horse, you still have much to learn... By the way, the reason your getting these reactions is because had we known this was simply an exercise in mental masturbation, none of the folks in this thread would have ever taken part. People were trying to help you make purchase decisions, not wax philosophical about sound gear....
Oh and one other thing, it's PUTTING the horse before the cart. If you needed a particular cart, say to carry a larger amount of passengers, you would certainly purchase the cart first, and then find the right horses to pull it. Not that that means anything, I just wanted to bust your stones...
Matt
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
Ooops... my bad. Hey just so you know I don't want to be perceived as a jerk... I'm not trying to squash this thread... I just think that there really AREN'T that many choices for your list. It's not a matter of opinion, but for instance if you want a 4073a and then decide you want other choices around that price point what else IS there? It's just stuff like that I'm talking about... so keep asking away... I'll just hang back.
(Sorry I guess I was just cranky from staying up all night waiting for you know what...:beer: )
(Sorry I guess I was just cranky from staying up all night waiting for you know what...:beer: )
To you all
Thank you kindly for your effort and time spent on this thread, it was insightful and interesting and im grateful for all the good tips. It think we have taken this as far as it will go here and it seems pointless to continue a debate about those few issues we don't agree on.
And MattinSTL weather you want or not, you have officially ben crowned "Don sound" in my book, thank you especially for your list, as i think it represents the crown piece of this thread.
All the best to all of you, and the best of luck for yore projects,
kind regards from Paris
Jon
Thank you kindly for your effort and time spent on this thread, it was insightful and interesting and im grateful for all the good tips. It think we have taken this as far as it will go here and it seems pointless to continue a debate about those few issues we don't agree on.
And MattinSTL weather you want or not, you have officially ben crowned "Don sound" in my book, thank you especially for your list, as i think it represents the crown piece of this thread.
All the best to all of you, and the best of luck for yore projects,
kind regards from Paris
Jon
stevesherrick
Well-known member
Okay, to get this back on track, let's look at a list of gear that was used to shoot a feature we did a couple years ago shooting with the DVX. We had very little money in the budget for sound gear. Here's what we used for a kit.
Audio Technica 835B
Audio Technica 815
Sennheiser ME66
Behringer Eurorack MXB1002 mixer
Tascam DAP1 DAT recorder
KTek Boompoles
Samson UM1 Micro Diversity Wireless system (2 of them)
Audio Technica Lavs
Rycote Softie
AT8410A shock mount
Mogami XLR cables 25 and 50 footers
Sony MV6 Headphones
Radio Shack Headphone amplifier
Was the sound award winning? No. Was it acceptable? Yes, for the most part. But here are some things that could have improved the situation and given us better sound even with the mediocre equiment listed above.
1. Sound absorption. Could have utilized sound blankets better to knock down some ugly reflections in certain locations. Became a time issue, but in an ideal world, we would have treated it.
2. Location scouting. Should have focused more on sound issues when we did our location scouting. Some of the locations proved to be tough due to background noise.
3. Better underclothing lav techniques. This is an art unto itself. If you can't secure a mic under clothing very well, you will have trouble getting useable sound. We didn't have the proper accessories to do it very well. Again, we got by, but it could have been better.
4. Get the freaking generators far enough away. Or you'll hear them on the soundtrack. We couldn't do that at one of the locations, and it led to us having to ADR the scenes. Ugh.
So, there ya go. That's a list of equipment that got the job done, but it's far from top of the line gear. But if we could do a decent job with that setup, maybe that's the kind of list you are looking for. Of couse, when you factor in the DAP1, that pushes the budget up quite a bit. But I bet someone could put a similar kit together through EBay and it would be much less than what we paid.
Steve
Audio Technica 835B
Audio Technica 815
Sennheiser ME66
Behringer Eurorack MXB1002 mixer
Tascam DAP1 DAT recorder
KTek Boompoles
Samson UM1 Micro Diversity Wireless system (2 of them)
Audio Technica Lavs
Rycote Softie
AT8410A shock mount
Mogami XLR cables 25 and 50 footers
Sony MV6 Headphones
Radio Shack Headphone amplifier
Was the sound award winning? No. Was it acceptable? Yes, for the most part. But here are some things that could have improved the situation and given us better sound even with the mediocre equiment listed above.
1. Sound absorption. Could have utilized sound blankets better to knock down some ugly reflections in certain locations. Became a time issue, but in an ideal world, we would have treated it.
2. Location scouting. Should have focused more on sound issues when we did our location scouting. Some of the locations proved to be tough due to background noise.
3. Better underclothing lav techniques. This is an art unto itself. If you can't secure a mic under clothing very well, you will have trouble getting useable sound. We didn't have the proper accessories to do it very well. Again, we got by, but it could have been better.
4. Get the freaking generators far enough away. Or you'll hear them on the soundtrack. We couldn't do that at one of the locations, and it led to us having to ADR the scenes. Ugh.
So, there ya go. That's a list of equipment that got the job done, but it's far from top of the line gear. But if we could do a decent job with that setup, maybe that's the kind of list you are looking for. Of couse, when you factor in the DAP1, that pushes the budget up quite a bit. But I bet someone could put a similar kit together through EBay and it would be much less than what we paid.
Steve
MattC
Veteran
Steve,
GREAT POST!!! This is what I was trying to say in a real world example. Is the me66 the best short shotgun - no way. It's not even one I like (strictly a personal preference regarding timbre) but the important part was controlling ambient sound. You found that your issues were basically due to that one point. Even the issue with lavs is an issue of controlling ambient sound (the sound of the clothes rubbing against the mic).
Control ambient sound and practice proper mic placement and you can get decent sound from the worst kit. Ignore those issues and your sound will suffer no matter how much $$$ you spend.
Jon, you want to add to your kit? Moving blankets and C-Stands. You could buy "sound" blankets but they're essentially the same thing at a quarter the price. Buy some Auralex foam and mount it to some foamcore. You can clamp this to a C-Stand just like you would a reflector.
GREAT POST!!! This is what I was trying to say in a real world example. Is the me66 the best short shotgun - no way. It's not even one I like (strictly a personal preference regarding timbre) but the important part was controlling ambient sound. You found that your issues were basically due to that one point. Even the issue with lavs is an issue of controlling ambient sound (the sound of the clothes rubbing against the mic).
Control ambient sound and practice proper mic placement and you can get decent sound from the worst kit. Ignore those issues and your sound will suffer no matter how much $$$ you spend.
Jon, you want to add to your kit? Moving blankets and C-Stands. You could buy "sound" blankets but they're essentially the same thing at a quarter the price. Buy some Auralex foam and mount it to some foamcore. You can clamp this to a C-Stand just like you would a reflector.
stevesherrick
I think you made a grate point, that the quality of sound is largely dominated by the time and care that it is given, and MattC is right that a grate mice will also preform poorly under bad circumstances. So where does this leave an indy sound kit? The fact of the matter is that shooting situations will never be grate in a low budget film, and if you have a real budget, you will hire a sound guy, so the equipment wont be your problem any more.
With this in mind i was thinking that it would be nice to have a sound kit that complimented the dvx in its quality, but didn't really surpass its purpose.
After thinking about this further i am now contemplating that recording separate from the camera is the way to go so i have completed the list as first presented in this thread, it sure is a beautiful list and very tempting for a shopoholic gear-head like my self, all im worried about is that it would be like getting the super pimp chrome rims for my beat up Ford. The list as it is now, is some serious $$$. As i have very little personal experience with sound equipment i can not comment on your list, but it would be grate to get some input from the others. Also, is this film you shot on-line? It would be grate to see and hear what the sound is like.
best regards
Jon
AUDIO TECHNICA AT4073A (OUT DOOR MIC)$549
OKTAVA MK012A (OR MC012A) WITH HYPER CAP (INDOOR MIC) $165
SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 COMBO: (WIRELESS KIT) $599
COUNTRYMAN B3 WITH ALL CAPS: (LAWALIER MIC) $206.50
MIXPRE (FIELD MIXER) $665
MARANTZ PMD660 (RECORDING DEVICE) $499.00
SONY 7506 (HEADPHONES) $99
KTEK KE110CC FOR $250
K-TEK KSSM WITH SOFT BANDS: (SHOCK MOUNT) $109
RYCOTE 12CM MH SOFTIE: (WIND SCREEN)$110
RYCOTE 19/20MM BBG: (WINDSCREEN SMALL) $125
RYCOTE WINDJAMMER FOR BBG: $60
50' CANARE STARQUAD XLR (CABLES) $47
PORTABRACE AR-7 (BAG) $199
TOTAL $3733.50
I think you made a grate point, that the quality of sound is largely dominated by the time and care that it is given, and MattC is right that a grate mice will also preform poorly under bad circumstances. So where does this leave an indy sound kit? The fact of the matter is that shooting situations will never be grate in a low budget film, and if you have a real budget, you will hire a sound guy, so the equipment wont be your problem any more.
With this in mind i was thinking that it would be nice to have a sound kit that complimented the dvx in its quality, but didn't really surpass its purpose.
After thinking about this further i am now contemplating that recording separate from the camera is the way to go so i have completed the list as first presented in this thread, it sure is a beautiful list and very tempting for a shopoholic gear-head like my self, all im worried about is that it would be like getting the super pimp chrome rims for my beat up Ford. The list as it is now, is some serious $$$. As i have very little personal experience with sound equipment i can not comment on your list, but it would be grate to get some input from the others. Also, is this film you shot on-line? It would be grate to see and hear what the sound is like.
best regards
Jon
AUDIO TECHNICA AT4073A (OUT DOOR MIC)$549
OKTAVA MK012A (OR MC012A) WITH HYPER CAP (INDOOR MIC) $165
SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 COMBO: (WIRELESS KIT) $599
COUNTRYMAN B3 WITH ALL CAPS: (LAWALIER MIC) $206.50
MIXPRE (FIELD MIXER) $665
MARANTZ PMD660 (RECORDING DEVICE) $499.00
SONY 7506 (HEADPHONES) $99
KTEK KE110CC FOR $250
K-TEK KSSM WITH SOFT BANDS: (SHOCK MOUNT) $109
RYCOTE 12CM MH SOFTIE: (WIND SCREEN)$110
RYCOTE 19/20MM BBG: (WINDSCREEN SMALL) $125
RYCOTE WINDJAMMER FOR BBG: $60
50' CANARE STARQUAD XLR (CABLES) $47
PORTABRACE AR-7 (BAG) $199
TOTAL $3733.50
MattC
Veteran
Great list, and it would certainly give you the quality you're looking for and yes, after hearing a recent test, I would record to another device with better preamps.
But now you have to ask yourself this. You could easily hire a sound guy to handle an indie film (say 4 weeks of shooting) for less than this kit will cost you - probably much less depending on your shooting schedule and who you hire. For example you won't get a union soundguy to do it for less, but you could get a young gun starting out, who owns a good bit of kit. Or you could get a real pro who's in between gigs and would be happy to pick up some extra cash and work on a fun project. Now the answer here always seems to be: "yeah, but if I buy the stuff I can use it on future projects". True, but how many feature films are you going to make on no budget. If I were really making an independent feature film, and I hoped it would get any kind of distribution, even direct to video, I would hire the sound guy. Let's face it, even if you buy the kit, your still going to need someone to run sound and boom the mic. So what, you buy the kit and then give it to someone who has no clue as to what they're doing? Not a good idea. Of course the other option is to buy the kit and have a friend study a big, practice and be your soundperson on everything you do. That's great if your doing a bunch of short films or maybe some commercial stuff. But to make a feature, a real feature, I would hire the soundguy and let him bring his own kit, which will be at LEAST as good as what you've outlined if not better.
By the way, I feel the same way about lighting. Sure I owns some lights and love playing with them. I'm learning a ton and I think that's necessary to be a DP (a role many indie directors take on). But if I were to shoot a feature, instead of buying a bunch of lights (more) I would hire a gaffer that had his own grip truck. You could hire him and his gear for what the lights would cost you. Would you own anything afterwords? No. But you would have good lighting on your picture.
It seems to me a lot of small indie folks don't really understand the BUSINESS of filmmaking. The goal is not to acquire gear. The goal is to put every penny you can on the screen and make the best picture possible so that you can secure distribution, make a profit for your investors (even if you're the only one) and then secure financing for you next film.
Just something to think about.
Matt
But now you have to ask yourself this. You could easily hire a sound guy to handle an indie film (say 4 weeks of shooting) for less than this kit will cost you - probably much less depending on your shooting schedule and who you hire. For example you won't get a union soundguy to do it for less, but you could get a young gun starting out, who owns a good bit of kit. Or you could get a real pro who's in between gigs and would be happy to pick up some extra cash and work on a fun project. Now the answer here always seems to be: "yeah, but if I buy the stuff I can use it on future projects". True, but how many feature films are you going to make on no budget. If I were really making an independent feature film, and I hoped it would get any kind of distribution, even direct to video, I would hire the sound guy. Let's face it, even if you buy the kit, your still going to need someone to run sound and boom the mic. So what, you buy the kit and then give it to someone who has no clue as to what they're doing? Not a good idea. Of course the other option is to buy the kit and have a friend study a big, practice and be your soundperson on everything you do. That's great if your doing a bunch of short films or maybe some commercial stuff. But to make a feature, a real feature, I would hire the soundguy and let him bring his own kit, which will be at LEAST as good as what you've outlined if not better.
By the way, I feel the same way about lighting. Sure I owns some lights and love playing with them. I'm learning a ton and I think that's necessary to be a DP (a role many indie directors take on). But if I were to shoot a feature, instead of buying a bunch of lights (more) I would hire a gaffer that had his own grip truck. You could hire him and his gear for what the lights would cost you. Would you own anything afterwords? No. But you would have good lighting on your picture.
It seems to me a lot of small indie folks don't really understand the BUSINESS of filmmaking. The goal is not to acquire gear. The goal is to put every penny you can on the screen and make the best picture possible so that you can secure distribution, make a profit for your investors (even if you're the only one) and then secure financing for you next film.
Just something to think about.
Matt
GenJerDan
Veteran
MattC said:
True.
But.
If I'm at that point, not only would I not use my audio equipment, or lights, I wouldn't be using the DVX. Or operating the camera, or DPing. I probably wouldn't even be directing. Just writing/producing, and whispering in the director's ear.
But for doing shorts, learning the craft, even doing a full-length "feature" on the DVX...I'll buy/make stuff. A complete movie-making kit. Certainly not a $3000 microphone, but $300? Sure. $200 lights? Sure. Good-enough mixers and outboard recorders? Sure.
I'll learn how to do everything...so when it comes to the "real thing" I'll know what I want and how to talk to the person doing it. Even after all the larnin' I did on the cheap, a hired pro will be better at it...but I'll know what I'm talking about and can sketch out what I want, getting a lot closer to something that makes sense than if I didn't do it all myself at one time or another.
But that's just me. I want to have fun -- because if it's not fun, I'm not gonna do it.
MattC
Veteran
Oh I agree with every word you wrote, hell I've been doing the same exact thing and buying the same stuff. But I have seen this question asked by folks doing a "feature" that they intend to distribute, and I'm just supplying an option.
Now if you were making a movie that you KNEW was going to the direct to video market? I might use a DVX. Would prefer a 2/3 cam, but you could get by with the DVX. Now in that case, I would still hire a crew with good gear.
Now if you were making a movie that you KNEW was going to the direct to video market? I might use a DVX. Would prefer a 2/3 cam, but you could get by with the DVX. Now in that case, I would still hire a crew with good gear.
Dyplodicus1975
Member
Regarding blimps and windscreens... okay, can anyone explain the differences in what they do to filter sound? When should you use them? Why do they regularly cost as much as, if not more than, the mic itself? Also, if you get... say... a Blue Line shotgun and hyper and get a blimp for the shotgun, can you use the same set-up with the hyper, too, or do you have to get a separate Baby Ball Gag? I've heard a mic is only as good as the protection around it, is that true?
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
It's not that simple to stop all of the air and yet none of the sound. You have to break up the air and let sound flow right through... a foam screen breaks up the air DIRECTLY ahead of the diaphragm... by however thick the screen is... and therefor it doesn't take much wind to make it through to the mic and rumble it... so that's why you either need fur or a dead-airspace. The best option is the dead airspace because the thin screen... placed inches away from the mic (maybe 2") allows the mic to hear openly and yet a breeze or puffs of air that make it through the blimp screen have some distance to mix with the still air inside the blimp and those puffs slow down enough to not rumble the mic. Fur does the same thing when the little hairs all move around with the wind... slowing the puffs or wind down as it tries to filter in to rumble the mic. The problem with fur is it also attenuates the high frequencies and slightly muffles the mic... so a blimp is preferred... but when it gets really breezy you need the fur... but having a mic in a blimp, with a dead-air space... and ALSO fur... will still give you a less muffled sound (and we're talking in matters of degrees here... you won't actually think it sounds muffled) then having fur directly over the mic. That and also with a blimp system you can have the COMBINATION of the dead air space AND the fur which results in a dramatically more effective screen under conditions of light breeze or challenging wind.
I don't know if that covers it, but I'll bet MattC can answer this one better.
I don't know if that covers it, but I'll bet MattC can answer this one better.
Is there a quality difference between a wireless boom or a wireless lavaliere mic? When using the SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2?
How could i find out what MHz SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 unit to get if im planing to use it in France? (is there a resource on the net)
thank you
Jon
How could i find out what MHz SENNHEISER EW100ENGG2 unit to get if im planing to use it in France? (is there a resource on the net)
thank you
Jon