AC130: no audio in joined files

I'll reformat the cards in AVCHD mode and see if that is it. I don't remember if I originally formatted them in SD mode or not. I was using both slots in simultaneous record and both cards had the dropped audio. I have a practice that I have to attend this weekend so I'll try some shots there and post the results here. I really appreciate all the assistance I've been getting as I'm new to the AVCHD world. I had none of these problems the last few years with a couple of GL-2's. This AG-AC10A does have a tremendous picture. Would it be worth the money to purchase one of the Ninja 2 recorders to use with the unit or would it be overkill?
 
I don't have my 130's any longer but I did use them for 80 odd hours each! (They just didn't suit my wedding style of shooting solo..but they are awesome cameras) I definately noticed the end of the first split clip had a blank section at the end regardless of whether I just copied the stream file only OR did it the correct way as Barry told me to....Apart from the trimming (which the HMC cameras don't create), the join up was definately seamless and I had no issues.

Definately reformat in AVCHD mode and test again....you might still get about 1/2 second of blank audio and video BUT you shouldn't lose any data at all...I never did!!

We await your results with bated breath!! If it's still missing maybe it needs a trip to the Panny Hospital under warranty??

Chris
 
Formatting should not matter depending on the mode that you are recording in. I cannot see that playing any role whatsoever here.

The only thing different that I see you doing from my own recording is that I have never tried using the simultaneous recording mode. That, plus the fact that I do my editing with Adobe Premiere. Since I realized the correct way to import with Premiere, I've never had any issues importing long clips. I've recorded as long as an hour and 40 minutes with no issues whatsoever.

Try shooting a test clip that goes beyond 4 gigs so that it spans to a second file, but do it with just recording to a single card. See if that makes any difference, and the issue goes away. And if the problem persists, then you would know that using the simultaneous recording feature is playing no role in your problem.

I think that you may well have an issue here that is worthy of calling Panasonic Broadcast tech support about. Their support number here in the USA is 1-800-524-1448

You could also call Sony Vegas Pro tech support too, and see what they have to say as well. I don't believe that anyone responding to you here uses Vegas Pro.

If you found that you could import just fine using another NLE, that would be a way of narrowing it down to being an issue with Vegas Pro. You could actually download a fully functional 30 day trial of the latest Adobe Premier from here:

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=premiere_pro

If you test this, just make sure that you use the Media Browser in Premiere. Use it to navigate to the /PRIVATE subfolder, and then right-click on the clip you want and choose IMPORT.

If the problem goes away, then you know that the issue involves your Sony Vegas Pro software. And if it does not, then you rule out Vegas Pro as being the cause of the problem. So either way, you help to narrow down the possible cause.

Anyway, if you can find the necessary time to try these two suggestions, you would at least make progress in narrowing down the potential cause of this problem.

And the more that you can do to try to narrow down the problem, will also be helpful to tech support at Panasonic in trying to troubleshoot it further.

Good luck.
 
Hi Lance

If it helps Walter here uses Vegas Pro and so do I and I never had any audio missing with the 130's on long clips BUT that was recording to just one card. I'm sure Walter would give his 2 cents worth if he had any issues on Vegas.

The only real answer is to do a +4GB test on just a single card!! That is a very sensible suggestion...don't cry over the symptom but start to isolate the cause of the issue!!

Chris
 
I did a test recording on a single card and got the same results. I also downloaded the VLC player and that would not play the clips seamlessly either. I don't have CS6 however I get the same dropped frames when using Pinnacle 14 and Avid Studio. The only way I can get a seamless clip is to use the mts joiner program that Panasonic gave me a download path for. Other than that Nothing joins without dropping frames between clips. I'm going to call Panasonic support at the number Lance posted and see what they have to say. Since the mts joiner program can put together one video file without any dropped frames all the information has to be recorded. When I record in SD mode the clips do all go into all the editors I have without any loss of frames. I wish I had known of all the trouble I was going to have when I bought the 130A and I could have saved myself $4000.
 
Ok, first of all a HUGE apology from me!!! I THOUGHT that I had an 11 frame piece at the end of my clip with no audio and video but I was wrong...I went back to my wedding clip of the ceremony (I had also correctly imported the entire "Private" folder too and DARN..I never looked at it correctly.. You are 100% correct!!! The clip is 26:42:18 and the video runs the full clip the audio dies at 26:42:07 so I ALSO had 11 frames where the audio was zero but the video was all there....I never noticed before cos it was a part where the priest was doing a long winded "homily" which the couple never wanted so I never used that section. OK, the preist MIGHT have been between two words BUT I still should have had ambient noise in the Church and my audio is totally flat on both XLR channels. I only used the 130's for weddings this March, April and May and after many issues (that's was another thread) I sold both cameras totally unimpressed sadly cos they really are nice units!!!

I would most definately load the 4GB clip into Vegas and expand it enough to see the audio blank section, so a screen capture, and send it to Panasonic so they can make their own deductions...The odds of a PAL 130 in Australia and a NTSC 130A in the USA being the only two with this fault is highly unlikely so it must be a firmware error when the clip gets to 3.99GB .... I have also checked big weddings both before and after my AC-130 period shot on the HMC82's and the clips are absolutely seamless (and that wasn't even clips imported the correct way as instructed by Barry Green..I just copied the stream folder over)


I would say that the audio signal is being halted 11 frames before the video ends .....I also checked video and the joinup seems to be correct.


Good luck and hope they sort it out for you


Chris
 
Chris:

I'm confident that Barry has all along been saying to not attempt to import an individual 4 GB clip by itself. Doing that is exactly what causes problems at the end of the clip. So I would fully expect for you to have an issue like this.
 
Chris:

I was able to exactly duplicate what you have noticed and reported in your latest message, but using CS6 instead.

I imported an individual 4 gig file that was part of a long 1 hour and 23 minute clip that I shot. And just as you reported, the last 11 seconds of audio is missing from the 4 gig clip.

However, when I properly import the entire 1 hour and 23 minutes together, there is no audio gap whatsoever.
 
Hi Lance

The particular wedding in question had the ENTIRE card structure imported to the computer ..it was all the footage shot on the A-Camera and all the metadata folders are obviously come along with it so it was done and the files were brought into Vegas exactly the way Barry told me too so I very much doubt whether that is the issue. I'm not disputing any issue here at all, simply trying to help a fellow user rectify a problem. Maybe Panasonic support can hopefully assist here and hopefully it is something very simple. It just seems strange that the issue occurs on three different NLE's unless he is importing files wrong on all three. My files from HMC cameras are absolutely perfect and both vision and audio are recorded right to the end and join seamlessly so maybe the 130/160 need special treatment over and above Barry's import method??
Since you have an AC-130 could you be so kind and see if you have any files where the shoot went over 3.99GB and maybe try to help with the problem. On the shoots I did where the file did split I expanded the file and the video IS perfect but there definately seems to be an 11 frame silence at the end. It would be very comforting I'm sure to our OP if he knows that you have split files and they are perfect in every way!!

Thanks for the help

Chris
 
Hi Lance

Thank you!! We had a crossed post there...I'm sure that our OP can now look at his import method and be assured that the files are, in fact, fine!!! Wonder why the HMC cameras are not so fussy??

Your efforts will be much appreciated I'm sure

Chris
 
Lance's experience is the way it's supposed to be -- import it properly, and it will be absolutely seamless, guaranteed.

I suspect that the problem here is in Vegas's importer.

I don't have Vegas 11, but I have Vegas 10, so I'll try doing a long clip and import in Premiere CS5 and Vegas 10 and see if there's any difference at the split point.
 
Okay, here's the situation: I recorded a 31-minute spanned clip on an AF100 (the only AVCCAM camera I have near me at the moment). I recorded PH mode 1080/24, and I made sure there would be audio in every single frame by playing a music track on repeat.

This resulted in a spanned clip, composed of 4GB 00015.MTS, and a 463mb clip 00016.MTS. Combined, their duration is 31 minutes.

I then copied the entire PRIVATE directory over to the hard disk.

I then imported the footage into Vegas 10 and Premiere CS5, each in two ways: the "proper" way (Device Manager in Vegas, Media Browser in Premiere) and the "wrong" way - meaning, I dragged the .MTS file directly out of the stream directory and brought that into the timeline.

Results:

Premiere "wrong":
I right-clicked in the bin, and chose "Import". I selected individual .MTS files on their own (i.e., not part of the AVCHD PRIVATE folder directory structure). Premiere reported the wrong file duration (10:32 for 00015.MTS), so we already know this is gonna fail, but -- on to step two. I imported both clips, and butted them together on the timeline. Glitch. Dropped audio.

Fail. Don't do it this way.

Second attempt: I right-clicked in the bin, and chose "Import", and then navigated into the PRIVATE->AVCHD->BDMV->STREAM directory. I encountered two files, 00015.MTS and 00016.MTS. They were recorded by the camera to be two parts of one spanned clip, and ideally should be presented as one clip to the user, but were shown as two. This right here lets me know this is going to fail, but ... let's press on. The preview properties for 00015.MTS show a clip length of 10:32:10, which is wrong, so... again, Fail. This is the wrong way to do it, and we're having that assessment reinforced every step of the way. Regardless, I imported the clips to the bin. In the bin, clip 00015.MTS shows up with a duration of 31:07:12. That's much better. Oddly, that is a different duration than Vegas reported (31:09:00) but ... well, onwards, I suppose. The disturbing thing is -- both clip 00015 and 00016 are in the bin, and they BOTH show a duration of 31:07:12. So perhaps Premiere knows they're a spanned clip and has linked them together, but instead of hiding the spanned portion, it's displaying both as individual identical clips. Blah.

Last test -- is there a gap? There is not. Premiere, even though imported the wrong way, still knew that it was a spanned clip BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE PROPER DIRECTORY FORMAT, and stitched the clips together. The downside to this "improper" way of importing, is that it created multiple duplicate clips in the bin. Not the worst way to go about it, but there is a better way.

Premiere "proper":
In the lower left window is a "Media Browser" window. I used that to navigate to the top of the PRIVATE directory where the footage was copied. Upon double-clicking into "PRIVATE", Premiere immediately recognized the contents as an AVCHD directory, and brought up icons and clip names for each clip. However, it did *not* bring up an icon for clip 00016, it only listed 00015. Exactly as it's supposed to! It also recognized the proper starting timecode of the clip. I then dragged the clip from the Media Browser window up to the bin. It shows one clip, not two -- i.e., no bogus duplicates. And that one clip has a duration of 31:07:12. And there is no gap in the audio. It is imported exactly as you would expect, a single proper clip with no flaw, no gap, no split, no problems.


Vegas "wrong":
I tried the "File->Import Media" function, and navigated into the STREAM directory. It brings up two clips, 00015.MTS (which it knows is 4GB, but erroneously reports the clip length as only 10 minutes and 32 seconds!) And 00016.MTS, which it knows is 463mb, and gives a record time of 3:36, which is probably about right. Note, Vegas has already failed here (in that it doesn't recognize a spanned clip as a spanned clip), but I chose to import them into the bin to see what happens anyway.

Once imported into the bin, Vegas now believes that 00015.MTS has a duration of 27:33:05, which is much more promising. However, when imported into the timeline, it does indeed show the last 11 frames as having no audio. Fail. But, at least there is audio in there through most of the clip (all of it but the last 11 frames).

Should you just trim off those last 11 frames? NO! Because the audio doesn't line up! I tried that, trimming off the audio-less frames and butting the two clips together, and the result is a glitch.

In all possible ways, direct importing of the .MTS files through the "File->Import Media" method have been a complete fail and I urge everyone to AVOID this method.

Method Two: Dragging files from the STREAM directory directly to the timeline: FAIL. Exact same results as the "File->Import Media" method.

Vegas 10 using the "proper" import method:
I used View->Device Explorer. It recognized the SDHC card as an "AVCHD device". When I browsed through the files, it brought up "00015" as a single clip, with a duration of 00:31:09. Now that's more like it! No mention of 00016, as there shouldn't be; 00016 should be an "invisible" part of the spanned 00015/00016 pair. So at first glance, it looks like it will work. It gives the file size of the combined/spanned clip as 4.652 GB, another promising sign. So I selected that one spanned clip and told it to "Import Selected Clips". It brings up a dialog box saying "Importing Files", and it's taking a while... clearly it is copying the files off the SDHC card onto the hard disk in the scratch folder somewhere. The result of this import is one big contiguous file, with a new name: "00015_20120903_153028.mts". So it is not 00015.mts, or 00016.mts, but an entirely new file named after 00015, plus the date, plus some other six digit number. Fine, but the big question is: is there a gap?

There is not. The clip is seamless, from start to finish, perfectly flawless, no gap, no dropout, no error. It is exactly as the camera recorded it.

I am disappointed, however, to report that the timecode was apparently not retained in the clip. I used the Sony Timecode effect, and it didn't report the actual SMPTE timecode that was recorded in the file, instead it reported the first frame of the clip as being 0:00.

I was unable to figure out how to get the Device Explorer to see the hard disk image instead of the SDHC card image however.

In summary, my advice to anyone using Vegas and spanned clips: never ever ever ever ever import the files by dragging the files from the STREAM directory into the bin, and never ever ever try to import the files by using File->Import. The *only* way that I found to successfully import spanned clips, was to use the Device Explorer.

For Premiere users, you simply really MUST keep the entire PRIVATE directory, and ideally you really, really should use the MEDIA BROWSER to import your footage. There's no downside to doing this, and the upside is that you will always have properly-stitched-together clips, you'll avoid spanned-clips bugs, you will avoid duplicate clips in the bin, and everything will just WORK properly.
 
Hi Barry

Awesome!! No wonder they call you the "guru".... Yes in Vegas 10 I also had the same issue with the Private folder on the drive....using Device Explorer, mine found the files and yes, there was the gap again!! However, pull the file off the card and it's perfect!!!
Hmmm I wonder if Vegas 11 rectifies this ..I too only have 10-64bit

Thanks again for yours and Lance's hard work and hopefully the OP will have a big smile on his face!!

Chris
 
Alternative Solution.

Use Edius. Never had a problem just dragging the clips in out of a folder. All the long form have joined perfectly.

Cheers,

Vaughan
 
But EDIUS will still require the complete directory structure, or it won't know how to span clips, surely?

If you have a spanned clip, try copying both pieces to a totally different directory (like c:\temp or someplace) and then import from there. I would bet that you'll run into the same empty-audio frame stuff at the end of the clip and no automatic joining...
 
I obviously made a mistake in my last previous post, and referred to having no audio for the last 11 seconds of a file, when I really meant to say 11 frames.

Been so busy lately that I've been online real late, and was tired after a long day.

Anyway, I just wanted to correct that.
 
But EDIUS will still require the complete directory structure
Click to expand...

Yes Barry, sorry, I should have been clearer. I always copy the complete file structure to the hard drive off the card.

Vaughan
 
Thank you Barry for the excellent detailed information on the proper method of inputting files into Vegas. I was trying to use the explorer window on the tabs at the bottom of the timeline and was unaware of the device explorer in the view window. I had downloaded a trial copy of Premier Pro and the files went in seamlessy. I then saw your post and using the device explorer in the view window the files all joined flawlessy as one clip with no dropouts. I had previously used the explorer tab in the timeline task bar for importing clips from my GL2's and my Firestore recorder and that all worked seamless but just dealing with avi files from the Firestore. I still don't understand why Panasonic's AVCCAM viewer won't seamlessly extract the files but at this point it doesn't matter since you have gotten me on the right track and I'm now able to seamlessly add my clips. Thank you Barry and everyone who offerred much needed assistance.

Jerry
 
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