No 4K for the FS700 till Summer 2013
- Thread starter NextWaveG
- Start date
I think 4K is out for most of us. $2K for the interface, or so I read, and the recorder is going to be really expensive.
At this point, I would gladly pay for a firmware update that just boosts the internal codec on the FS700 to broadcast friendly and maybe small resolution increase for post cropping, then I'd feel like it's living up to it's potential. I'd be much happier with that than expensive 4K recording to a large external box. Kind of like how the BMC just works with what it has to maximize it's potential.
Just seems like the interface + 4K recorder will cost more than the camera itself, which just doesn't feel quite right.
At this point, I would gladly pay for a firmware update that just boosts the internal codec on the FS700 to broadcast friendly and maybe small resolution increase for post cropping, then I'd feel like it's living up to it's potential. I'd be much happier with that than expensive 4K recording to a large external box. Kind of like how the BMC just works with what it has to maximize it's potential.
Just seems like the interface + 4K recorder will cost more than the camera itself, which just doesn't feel quite right.
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NextWaveG
Well-known member
I don't think 4K is out at all. I remember Sony saying a month ago that the FS700 would support other 4K recorders on the market, including the Quad. Unless they've changed their minds I still expect other options than Sony's recorder. Even with the $2,000 module, adding the $4,000 Quad to the mix brings the price to $6,000...not that bad for 4K acquisition.
nyvz
Veteran
I don't know, after this announcement, I'm skeptical Sony would allow any 3rd party recorders to do 4k raw from the FS700. If all you need to get 4k RAW is a $8k FS700 and $4-6k recorder, then why would anyone buy an F5 or F55?
Then again it looks like the AJA ki quad doesn't record RAW internally, only records debayered formats and sends RAW out thunderbolt for tethered RAW recording?
Also, FS700 might not be getting 4k RAW until spring/summer 2013, but then again the F55/F5 probably wont be getting it until then either...
Then again it looks like the AJA ki quad doesn't record RAW internally, only records debayered formats and sends RAW out thunderbolt for tethered RAW recording?
Also, FS700 might not be getting 4k RAW until spring/summer 2013, but then again the F55/F5 probably wont be getting it until then either...
I do like the look of the Sony recorde since it's small in size. Hopefully, others will follow suit and make more compact 4K recorders. I'm wondering if the interface module is mainly for the Sony Recorder? Seems like if the SDI was fully enabled, you should just be able to output it from there? Who knows what the future brings.
The thing with the Ki-Pro Quad is that it looks really large compared to the Sony. I think small is key, kind of like how Sony does it, but with a smaller price 
Hopefully, someone like Atomos will come out with a 4K recorder that's the same physical size as their Ninja or Samurai. Then I will be smiling.
Well, it's still at least 6 months away so start saving.
Hopefully, someone like Atomos will come out with a 4K recorder that's the same physical size as their Ninja or Samurai. Then I will be smiling.Well, it's still at least 6 months away so start saving.
I really like Gemini RAW recorder, it's compact and it records raw. I think back in NAB 2012 they said they were working with Sony together for FS700 raw output. 2000$ for interface and around $6000+ for raw recorder. I would say if the overall price for a recorder and interface would be no more than $10k that would awesome but only if it produces decent $10k worth extra image.
$2000 not a bad price.
Another awkward brick -- good to have on the back for balance.
2000$ it's just for an interface not for recorder.
starcentral
Veteran
Yes you will need another module called the HXR-IFR5 that will be priced around $2000 in order to work with the new Sony AXS-R5 deck. (~~ $15k - $20k no price confirmed at time of this writing)
And.... the new 4k AXS-R5 deck is Sony proprietary so it will only work on your FS700, F5 or F55. You might want to look at other options to record 4k out of that single 3G SDI connector on the FS700. I don't even think the AJA Ki Quad does single 3G SDI but I could be wrong.
Looks like FS700 owners will need to spend a small fortune to get 4k out of it if they go the Sony route...
And.... the new 4k AXS-R5 deck is Sony proprietary so it will only work on your FS700, F5 or F55. You might want to look at other options to record 4k out of that single 3G SDI connector on the FS700. I don't even think the AJA Ki Quad does single 3G SDI but I could be wrong.
Looks like FS700 owners will need to spend a small fortune to get 4k out of it if they go the Sony route...
starcentral
Veteran
**EDIT: and the current price for 1TB SRMASTER media (60 minutes) is around $6000, so I would expect around the same for the new media that will work with the AXS-R5.
It is FAR FAR FAR cheaper to buy a Scarlet camera and record RAW internally....
It is FAR FAR FAR cheaper to buy a Scarlet camera and record RAW internally....
@ Starcental, with the F5 rumored to be around $18K (which seems really cheap), does it seem like the F3 is going to be done? What do you think? To me, the F3 just seems so dated at this point, especially since it does not have a 4K sensor, has a weak internal codec and the ergonomics seems from another era. Seems like the FS700 has more advanced hardware than the F3, just a more crippled firmware. And I'm in the minority here, but I actually don't mind the ergonomics on the FS700 and really like shooting with it.
Do you think that the FS700 would be positioned under the F5? Kind of makes sense to me as the price is doubled with the F5. But my main thing is the internal codec choices on the F5 are incredible and so advanced. Seems like the FS700 should get just a bump to broadcast friendly levels if it is to sit under the F5. Otherwise, the FS700 will be dated super quickly with all the new cameras / codecs coming out.
Do you think that the FS700 would be positioned under the F5? Kind of makes sense to me as the price is doubled with the F5. But my main thing is the internal codec choices on the F5 are incredible and so advanced. Seems like the FS700 should get just a bump to broadcast friendly levels if it is to sit under the F5. Otherwise, the FS700 will be dated super quickly with all the new cameras / codecs coming out.
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starcentral
Veteran
The F3 is no where close to being done. That's like saying HD is done which is a whole other debate in itself. People (including myself) need a serious reality check to ask themselves why they think they even need 4k. I have my own reasons, but everyone needs to have theirs. If it's so you don't have to buy another camera don't be fooled. I'm on my 8th or 9th camera in the last 10 years and now recently decided that owning a separate HD and 4k camera is my best and most cost effective option. (for me)
Remember that in all reality 4k right now has very limited uses and application. Broadcast is still HD and who knows how long before they go to 4k. HD has been and still continues to be used a countless number of motion picture huge budgeted films (Alexa, Sony FS900, etc..) and 4k argueably while sharper and better for projection doesn't mean anything you or I shoot in 4k is going to be projected. Have you seen 7D or 5D footage projected on a large screen? It is sick. Sharp, beautiful, amazing..
Back to the F3: The XDCAM codec is quite robust compared to what others are shooting with. Remember for a cheap ext. deck you can shoot any flavour of codecs you want. Hyperdeck shuttle 2 is $350 bucks. 10-bit 422 is all you need. I'm grading 8-bit 420 and people ask if I'm shooting in SLOG.
Is for 4k the future? YES. Is that future now? NO. Should you pay for it now? MAYBE - but BEWARE it won't pay you back dividends that's for sure. RED, Canon and Sony are fighting for a 4k market right now so by the time "you really need 4k" it will only cost less - not more.
• Right now it looks like the FS700 to shoot 4k will cost $9k + $2k + $15k (without media.)
• The F5 can't shoot 4k at all without an external recorder so again you're looking at an expensive external deck.
• Competitor 4k decks won't be RAW but are priced at around $6k-$9k (estimated).
If you need 4k RAW 16-bit then you should have bought a RED camera, and with a cheap ext. deck you can easily record 1080p.
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robmneilson
Veteran
Excellent post. Now if anyone would like to sell me their obsolete F3 for a rock bottom price, please get in touch!
starcentral
Veteran
I actually had my F3 listed for sale when Sony first announced they would be releasing something new in hopes of moving over to affordable 4k with the added flexibility of being able to shoot HD with some type of codec. At the same time RED announced their seriously limited quantity of Scarlets for sale at 40% off so I ordered one.
Both cams are unique from each other and intended for purposes so I wrestled moving away from the F3 and just using the RED with ext. deck for 1080p... but as the announcement of the new F's came out with the kind of features they are talking about, man, it really don't think it will be something I can afford as I am suspecting that F55 to be at least $20 if we're lucky, and then the 4k recorder for NO LESS than $9k (since the SR-R1 is $8990 and the SR-R4 is $20k) but as high as $20k.
Get your hands on a used F3 for $11k and a used Scarlet for $9k and you're done.
Hey Starcental,
@ Starcentral, I never said that HD is done. I completely agree with you the 4K is still quite a ways off. For me, I don't have much use for 4K except on the occasions when we use the green screen at work. Actually, I work at a studio that does a lot of work with major networks like Disney and ABC. And nobody really wants a 4K workflow for broadcast. That would be so difficult. In fact, most people I work at the studio and also the client end, with would be surprised if 4K was broadcasted within the next 10 years. Maybe for films, 4K will be up quicker, but TV moves at a much slower pace. So, no HD is here for a long time.
As for the F3, at least me, seems like it's hardware is behind the FS700 (it came out over a year later) but it's firmware is above the FS700. Seems like the FS700 could easily do what the F3 does, but the F3 cannot physical do what the FS700 does (at least in regards to 4K). It's kind of a reversal of sorts because usually the more advanced firmware is tied to the more advanced hardware; but it doesn't seem to be the case this time.
But I could be wrong, since you are probably way more in the know about camera tech than I am.
Anyways, the F5 and F55 are kind of a reality check anyways. 4K is really $$$K still, at least with Sony.
@ Starcentral, I never said that HD is done. I completely agree with you the 4K is still quite a ways off. For me, I don't have much use for 4K except on the occasions when we use the green screen at work. Actually, I work at a studio that does a lot of work with major networks like Disney and ABC. And nobody really wants a 4K workflow for broadcast. That would be so difficult. In fact, most people I work at the studio and also the client end, with would be surprised if 4K was broadcasted within the next 10 years. Maybe for films, 4K will be up quicker, but TV moves at a much slower pace. So, no HD is here for a long time.
As for the F3, at least me, seems like it's hardware is behind the FS700 (it came out over a year later) but it's firmware is above the FS700. Seems like the FS700 could easily do what the F3 does, but the F3 cannot physical do what the FS700 does (at least in regards to 4K). It's kind of a reversal of sorts because usually the more advanced firmware is tied to the more advanced hardware; but it doesn't seem to be the case this time.
But I could be wrong, since you are probably way more in the know about camera tech than I am.
Anyways, the F5 and F55 are kind of a reality check anyways. 4K is really $$$K still, at least with Sony.
starcentral
Veteran
Sorry I didn't mean to sound like you said HD was done, I just meant a general question but yes... We are further from 4k than most people think. 4k was derived to replace film and RED has done a good job with that, now it seems others want to ride the same bandwagon (6 years later mind you) but we'll see just how far desperate manufacturers will go to drum up sales.
As for codec 24 vs 35mbps and all other spec differences I don't really buy in or get in those debates, a good DOP will know how to maximize the look of any camera or its limitations. I get my scenes within a certain contrast ratio so more stops don't really "make" the picture.
The FS is indeed an amazing camera, especially for the price and still could prove to be a very cost effective 4k solution going the non-Sony route. Let's see what blackmagic comes out with as far as 4k recorders....
As for codec 24 vs 35mbps and all other spec differences I don't really buy in or get in those debates, a good DOP will know how to maximize the look of any camera or its limitations. I get my scenes within a certain contrast ratio so more stops don't really "make" the picture.
The FS is indeed an amazing camera, especially for the price and still could prove to be a very cost effective 4k solution going the non-Sony route. Let's see what blackmagic comes out with as far as 4k recorders....
I think people are jumping the gun on the FS700 and 4K. The announcement says a firmware upgrade will enable 4K bit stream via the 3G SDI port.
If you want to use Sony recording gear, you will need the Sony interface. If not, I'm betting a 3rd party device hooking directly up to the 3G SDI port will become available around the release date of the firmware update.
I would rather see Sony implement XAVC internally.
If you want to use Sony recording gear, you will need the Sony interface. If not, I'm betting a 3rd party device hooking directly up to the 3G SDI port will become available around the release date of the firmware update.
I would rather see Sony implement XAVC internally.
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