Nikon, Canon vs. Cine glass.

Jannard

Jannard

Red Leader
There is no question that inexpensive great quality glass is available from the still photography marketplace. Nikon, Canon and others made fine manual focus/aperture lenses that will work on RED and deliver excellect images. BUT. You need to be aware that the focusing range (degrees of turn from close to infinity) is pretty short on most of these lenses. Given that one of the most difficult parts of being a "pro" with a large sensor is pulling focus, this needs to be called to attention. It can be done, but it is much easier with cine-style lenses. That's why they make 'em. I don't want anyone to be disappointed that they got caught by surprise with this fact while they were saving so much money.

The good news is that nothing looks better than a shallow depth of field shot. But it is not that easy to pull off.

Jim
 
good point Jim.. most still lenses have a focus range of less then 90 degrees around.. when your depth of field becomes less than an inch things get tricky.

One solution for this though is to use a Follow Focus with increased gearing ratio, so when you turn the follow focus knob the gear on the lens rotates at a smaller rate. This of course will require a focus gear ring on the lens, which is an easy add on.
 
Hope you do, Jim. While you're at it, you may find that people aren't so crazy about the available options in rails/matteboxes. Price/function/durability aren't where they could be.
 
Jannard said:
There is no question that inexpensive great quality glass is available from the still photography marketplace. Nikon, Canon and others made fine manual focus/aperture lenses that will work on RED and deliver excellect images. BUT. You need to be aware that the focusing range (degrees of turn from close to infinity) is pretty short on most of these lenses. Given that one of the most difficult parts of being a "pro" with a large sensor is pulling focus, this needs to be called to attention. It can be done, but it is much easier with cine-style lenses. That's why they make 'em. I don't want anyone to be disappointed that they got caught by surprise with this fact while they were saving so much money.
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I think your original post in this thread brings up a great point, and I'm admittedly surprised to see so many people running to put sub-$100 lenses on their new $17,500+ Red camera. I'll be the first in line to admit that even given that Red's amazing price compared to anything remotely similar to it is nothing short of amazing, it is still a very large investment to undertake no matter who you are. It's the cost of a decent car! But Red has always stood for quality and has always been aimed at serious users, so this is no surprise. And while I think the built-in compatibility with still lenses is fantastic for convenience sake (and sure, a financial one too), I think people who are putting forth the money for a camera like this should also be motivated to educate and inform themselves of the limitations of such lenses. I get the feeling that a lot of users are planning to use Nikon or Canon glass extensively with Red because of the cost factors involved, and I do think that in doing so they'll be selling themselves short with the purchase they've made. Just one opinion, though, and I am definitely grateful for having options.

Jannard said:
The good news is that nothing looks better than a shallow depth of field shot. But it is not that easy to pull off.
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I'm glad there are others out there who agree with me on (both parts!) of this. :)
 
The only reason we are making lenses is because users will see the need for cine-style quality glass and be disappointed at their options (mostly cost). Cooke makes incredible lenses, but only the rare fortunate few can afford them. Many will still be disappointed with our prices because they are not 3 figures. Those that are disappointed will buy SLR lenses. Those with a bit bigger budget will have options without spending $35K on a zoom or $18k on a prime.

Jim
 
Jarred Land said:
good point Jim.. most still lenses have a focus range of less then 90 degrees around.. when your depth of field becomes less than an inch things get tricky.

One solution for this though is to use a Follow Focus with increased gearing ratio, so when you turn the follow focus knob the gear on the lens rotates at a smaller rate. This of course will require a focus gear ring on the lens, which is an easy add on.
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Great input Jarred! You know your market very well and it will be very useful such affordable solutions like yours of this post. We appreciate it and must be grateful for this concern.
 
Jannard said:
The only reason we are making lenses is because users will see the need for cine-style quality glass and be disappointed at their options (mostly cost).
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I think that's completely understood, and I (as well as a great number of people, I'm sure) applaud you for this. I do believe that the camera body itself is not the only thing coming from Red that is going to blaze some trails.
 
Lightweight interest will be a great point to take care. Specially regarding the zoom that we'd like to see not so far away from the $5K range.

Jim, is it possible to get it?
 
Emanuel said:
Lightweight interest will be a great point to take care. Specially regarding the zoom that we'd like to see not so far away from the $5K range.

Jim, is it possible to get it?
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5k? I wish...I would snap that up quick! I don't think that is likey , given that 300mm is $4,750
 
Jannard said:
The good news is that nothing looks better than a shallow depth of field shot. But it is not that easy to pull off.

Jim
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There is already an open thread concerning the subject here, however I'm asking if will it be possible to add any kind of easy focus?

Would it be possible to get it from the recent available technology as it happens with the new Canon cameras? Even as external option device in order to provide inexpensive (as well, run and gun) follow focus?
 
Jim, I'm glad you made this thread. This was the same advice I got from a pro DP, BTW.

It's been a question that I've kicked around. Yeah, there probably will be a follow focus developed to maximize the potential of using stills, but people should be aware of the tradeoffs (cost vs. performance), IMO. Glad to see you're letting folks know up front. For 35mm glass - possibly the elite Russian lenses, or used MK2, Superspeeds... There are options until RED makes a zoom/primes, if you don't want to use stills. And if there is enough demand to make stills as easy to use as possible (within the constraints of the format) then i'm sure someone will make a buck off of it. Hello follow focus companies. ;)


Should I buy a used zoom for personal projects, and rent lenses for paying productions...? Is waiting a few months before RED starts manufacturing cameras (to purchase lenses) a foolhardy decision or a prudent one ? Will spending mega bucks on a used zoom, be imprudent if a still lens solution can be developed within the performance comfort zone ? Will RED make a zoom/primes within time for my proposed start dates ? These are the questions I keep bouncing.

To tell you the truth, I could use a camera with less frills, if it meant you could devote time to lens development. I know, that's not how the process works, though.

Food for thought. Thanks Jim. :beer:




RED # wish I was higher
 
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JTmoney said:
5k? I wish...I would snap that up quick! I don't think that is likey, given that 300mm is $4,750
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People thought a 4K camera for $17,500 was a dream, too. Gotta love the doubters!
 
I'd LOVE to see a Red follow focus kit/matte box option when it ships. I'd definitely buy it. I see that the Red Cage has the front mounts for rails so that'd be on the shopping list too :)

Then buy a cine zoom if I can find a cheap one, until Red Zoom arrives, at which point I'd get that and basically have the complete kit for my needs.

Oh and I definitely second the idea of having a geared follow focus kit at launch so still lenses become a more usable and attractive option! This camera just keeps getting better and better thanks to this nascent community :)
 
I definitely think that if Red takes off (which I fully expect it will), there will be a lot of third party options developed for the platform. I can't imagine Red themselves is going to put much R&D into a mattebox or the like (especially before the camera ships), but the nice thing about Red is that it is being developed with universal standards and modularity in mind.
 
$5K for the zoom? It gets cheaper everytime somebody mentions it.

Under $10K is my hope. I hope that is a realistic price. I am selling a kidney to purchase the RED and I'm hoping I don't need to sell a lung for the lens.
 
No one knows what price the zoom will be. Their goal is to make cine-style quality glass as affordable as possible. With that in mind, it's certainly my hope that it will be well under 10K. That being said, everything is pure speculation so there isn't much point throwing numbers around trying to hit a target that doesn't exist.
 
Some thoughts after reading this thread:

Depth of Field

The wide range of production cine-style and ENG-style genres I work in requires DOF from near-infinity down to one inch. Establishing shots and scenic travel shots require the deepest DOF possible. Close up nature, people, and object shots require extremely shallow DOF. My styles of production require me to shift gears constantly between shallow DOF, deep DOF, and every gradient in between. I have the experience to get those shots, but my equipment needs to enable me to do so. Using still photo lenses and cine-style lenses I need a good follow focus system. Using ENG-style lenses, no follow focus is needed, but for long focal length, shallow DOF shots, a good tripod (or the ground, a post, etc.) is necessary. My productions use the DOF for each shot that is needed to easily guide the viewer’s eyes to the point of interest for that particular shot – sometimes deep, sometimes shallow, and everywhere in between.

Still photo lens use on RED

I’ve owned a Nikon F since 1969, and I have some excellent manual lenses for it. I’ll test them out on RED, and for some smaller budget, risky (water housing), and weight-conscious shots I may use them. I also already own some Canon still lenses I want to test on RED. Will I go out and buy a big cache of still photo lenses just for RED use. No. A good down-geared follow focus, as Jarred has suggested, would be most welcome for using these lenses with RED. I’m stoked to have the option to use still photo lenses on RED.

RED lenses

RED was born from an optical background influence (Oakley/Jannard). I expect the RED lenses to be real good, optimized and engineered for the RED camera, and relatively affordable. For some of my genres of shooting (nature, sports, products) I can find real good use for the RED 300mm f2.8. I’ll also have a doubler for it for long focal length sports and nature shooting. I’m especially anxious to check out the RED wide zoom when it’s available. When I use a cine-style zoom it is as a variable focal length lens. I rarely zoom during a shot unless it’s a snap zoom for effect or a super-slow, almost imperceptive movement. Since my genres of production call for scores of new setups all day long, and many times the subjects I’m shooting are either far away, too dangerous to get close to, or a rapidly-changing environment where I need to re-frame and capture images, using a zoom as a VFL lens allows me to quickly adjust focal length. I know I lose a tad bit of crispness by not using a prime in those situations, but a prime is not practical for the multiple setups/focal lengths shooting scenario. Depending on the focal length of the RED zoom, I expect that a huge portion of my cine-style shooting will be with a three-lens package: a good wide angle prime for use on POV shots, Steadycam, water housings, etc., the RED wide zoom, and the RED 300mm (with a 2x available). The fourth lens in my overall package will be a used 18x 2/3” HD ENG zoom, with doubler and a zoom-through wide converter lens, for doing ENG-style work with RED.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
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Another great post Gibby! Sounds like a perfect set up.

And for the record, I like zoom shots. I understand the advantage of primes, but if it's a choice between one or the other (and for my budget, it is), I'll take the zoom. I attended a filmmaking course, a few years back and the guy running it said 'never zoom during a shot'. I don't know if it's out of spite, but I now tend do a zoom shot, both slow and fast, at least once per project.

So bring on the RED zoom!
 
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