Next generation F3

^ I should say Red did eventually replace the Scarlet which was nice of them. I just really hate to see a professional camera have those kind of issues.
 
First we got the Sony PMW-100, then the Sony PMW-200. Now we get the Sony PMW-150, and the new field recorder the Sony PMW-50. It's a 50Mbit XDCAM 422HD world out there. The next large format XDCAM camera will be 50Mbit. That's pretty obvious. Now, to just be patient...
 
They keep pedaling that 35Mbps 4-2-0 internal codec and leave the higher-end stuff to external recorders. Why the heck can't someone else make a 4-2-2 or 4-4-4 ProRes to internal? Arri did it with Alexa.
 
This is why some others and myself feel the inevitable path to RED. No external hardware needed to record. Why would you blow $4k-$6k on a recorder alone when you can buy used RED packages for say double that?

As for ProRes, doesn't Apple own it? That would explain why. They will sue you for using it.
 
Yep. Still own my F3, but went Red and love it. Not really drinking the Koolaid, but it took actually owning one to see the brilliance in it.
On the Apple/ProRes issue, yes they've become the evil Borg that they once denounced in 1984. I guess the camera developers just need to pony-up...Arri apparently did.
 
LeavingTheCandy said:
They keep pedaling that 35Mbps 4-2-0 internal codec and leave the higher-end stuff to external recorders. Why the heck can't someone else make a 4-2-2 or 4-4-4 ProRes to internal? Arri did it with Alexa.
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Well, actually, they're pedaling the XDCAM HD 422 50Mbit on all the new PMW cameras announced in the past six months - the PMW-100, PMW-200, and PMW-150 all have XDCAM HD 422 50Mbit support. They're backwards compatible to XDCAM-EX 420 35Mbit, but that's a legacy mode.

As to why they don't offer ProRes, I'm sure there would be licensing involved, and I don't think Sony is very interested in going that route. Also, keep in mind the Alexa is a $70k camera, not a sub 10k camera.

It's pretty clear that on the Prosumer/Professional broadcast Sony now has two lines: NEX with AVCHD, and PMW with XDCAM HD 422 (50Mbit).
 
LeavingTheCandy said:
On the Apple/ProRes issue, yes they've become the evil Borg that they once denounced in 1984. I guess the camera developers just need to pony-up...Arri apparently did.
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It's worth noting that Arri doesn't have a background in codec development. It's not part of their business. For Sony, it is. Sony probably won't offer us a ProRes internal camera. What they'll work towards is a HDCAM-SR internal camera. That's a Sony codec.
 
I can think of many words to describe Sony's product line, but "clear" would certainly not be amongst them.
As for the licensing costs of ProRes, if AJA and Atomos can afford to do it at their price-point, I'm quite certain Sony can.
 
LeavingTheCandy said:
I can think of many words to describe Sony's product line, but "clear" would certainly not be amongst them.
As for the licensing costs of ProRes, if AJA and Atomos can afford to do it at their price-point, I'm quite certain Sony can.
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That really depends at how you look at it. If you don't read into the equation what you wish they would make, but look at what they're actually making, it's not terribly surprising. The fact is, Sony doesn't make that many "brand new" cameras. The EX3 is a modified EX1. The PMW-F3 has new hardware and a new chip, but they built it around the guts of an EX1-R & EX3. Right down to the menus and cache recording, it's all borrowed. The PMW-200 uses a lens either exactly the same as the EX1-R, or barely modified, and is basically an EX1-R with a new codec chip and a timecode & genlock.

The FS700 is built around the guts of the FS100.

I'm pretty sure Sony won't bother to pony up for ProRes. But it's kinda funny, everyone moaning about why can't Sony just give them 50Mbit 422, and as soon as they do, everyone's whining because there's no built in ProRes. If you give a mouse a cookie...
 
Viddovation said:
I'm pretty sure Sony won't bother to pony up for ProRes. But it's kinda funny, everyone moaning about why can't Sony just give them 50Mbit 422, and as soon as they do, everyone's whining because there's no built in ProRes. If you give a mouse a cookie...
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I would be very happy with 50Mbps and 4.2.2 on MP4. MP4 is very efficent and an approx. 50% increase in bit rate would give you something.

OTOH, ProRes is very inefficent. That doesn't mean it can give great pictures, it means you have to have high bit rates like 200Mbps in HQ to get the best quality. Don't even think about ProRes on an F3. That would necessitate a whole new design. Ain't gonna happen.
 
For me it wouldn't be worth paying the difference to go from F3 to F5 just to gain 50mbps. For an extra $2k I'd just add kipro or atmos.

As for prores, I had to submit a video to a film festival for screening purposes in ProRes 422 and my 130MB MP4 (h.264) project file went to over 500MB in ProRes, then I had to upload it online :S
 
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I am guessing on this completely

this is my guess and dream for the f5:

f5 will have 50 mbps internal
4k capability ala fs700
up to 240 fps at 720p or what have you
slog 1

basically a fs700 with f3 merged will make it a must buy for me.

until then its buying the micro 4/3rds blackmagic camera and renting fs700 and scarlet and epic and alexa.
 
^ you know what, I completely agree with you. I was trying to make a joke when i said "watch the F5 be 50mbps 422" but actually it all makes sense now. I keep forgetting how Sony first sold the F3 with the OPTION to buy SLOG and 444 via dual-link for $3800. They did this so they could sell the camera those in different markets which is "smart" on their part.

So the F5 will indeed be a 2k HD camera capable of 50mbps 422 internally that offers 4k via single 3G SDI just like the FS700, and by this right Sony will have more avenues to peddle 4k ext. recorders of their own plus further propell their open source codec "SRMASTER" used for higher bitrate 4k recording.

Sony had the same tactics with the F65 4k camera as well by selling a 12-bit option, which also required an ext. recorder to capture 444 it. I see a trend here.

The big problem I see with the F5 is the price. If the F65 "true" 4k camera is $65,000 then at what price will the F5 enter the market that doesn't compete with the F65?

I'll bet the F5 will cost $25,000, never have an option for 12-bit (you buy the F65 for that), and require an option to get 4k out of the camera in 422 or 444. It'll be well over $35,000 in the end and for the people who want "true 4k" and 12-bit there will be the F65.
 
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I think the F5 will have a very competitve price. The F3 could have been a lot more expensive and bulit like a F900 camera but they made it out of lighter material I think helped keep the price down.

They know where the F5 would fit in the market and again they want to sell a lot of them so I think they would keep it sub-20k.

But maybe you're right, they would try to increase it.

I'm not a marketing person nor technology person, so who knows. But we do know how exciting it is that they made the fs700 and say that the 4k option out will be available in a few weeks and that AJA is soon to come out with their 4k recorder.

Hopefully there is an advantage to the 4k output for 1080p downconversion. I don't know that actually - would you gain any perceivable resolution?
 
starcentral said:
I'll bet the F5 will cost $25,000, never have an option for 12-bit (you buy the F65 for that), and require an option to get 4k out of the camera in 422 or 444. It'll be well over $35,000 in the end and for the people who want "true 4k" and 12-bit there will be the F65.
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Sounds like the C500... so you may be on the right track...
 
starcentral said:
So the F5 will indeed be a 2k HD camera capable of 50mbps 422 internally that offers 4k via single 3G SDI just like the FS700, and by this right Sony will have more avenues to peddle 4k ext. recorders of their own plus further propell their open source codec "SRMASTER" used for higher bitrate 4k recording.

Sony had the same tactics with the F65 4k camera as well by selling a 12-bit option, which also required an ext. recorder to capture 444 it. I see a trend here.

I'll bet the F5 will cost $25,000, never have an option for 12-bit (you buy the F65 for that), and require an option to get 4k out of the camera in 422 or 444. It'll be well over $35,000 in the end and for the people who want "true 4k" and 12-bit there will be the F65.
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Using that logic I will never buy the 4k rez option, but will wait for it to be free. Sony screwed us once on that S-Log option situation already.

At a $25,000 for 10bit 1080p camera its a heck of a lot cheaper to just keep my Samurai recorder attached to the camera. The F5 advantage would be minimal and the risks large. (That option won't be cheap.)
 
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