LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
Duke is correct...I've invested my 4K option with Red.
Next generation F3
- Thread starter Grahamrobbins5
- Start date
It's so much worse than just boring! The fact that Sony still don't have a large sensor camera that can record 50MB/s on board is a tragedy for their European broadcast market. Or should I say, what was their market!
Duke M.
Veteran
That was kind of boring. I can't believe they are concentrating R&D on 3D. 3D seems on its way out (again) because of the lack of support. 3D doesn't tell a story. Actually, it usually distracts from the story.
They need to give us the proper HD at a reasonable price before they go "Beyond HD".
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Maybe you don't have broadcast clients asking for the C300 almost daily !!!
I remember a time when if you didn't have a Sony 790, 750 or whatever, you wouldn't get much work.
(I tell them the F3 produces nicer pictures, is much more flexible, better cinema lenses, easy to use, and the rushes get backed up onto 35Mb/s, but are they interested?)
powervideo
Well-known member
I don't think this is such a big deal. Stick an inexpensive Samurai on the back and you have reliable 220mbs 10-bit video.
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It's a big deal because broadcasters don't want the hassle... or 220 MB/s for that matter!
I have a PIX240, KiPro Mini and NanoFlash... none of which enable me to call the F3 a C300 - which is what most producers are now asking for. We all know the C300 isn't the best option, but that's irrelevant once a new toy becomes 'the thing to use'. Unfortunately, that's what Sony have lost by being so slow to react to the market.
I have a PIX240, KiPro Mini and NanoFlash... none of which enable me to call the F3 a C300 - which is what most producers are now asking for. We all know the C300 isn't the best option, but that's irrelevant once a new toy becomes 'the thing to use'. Unfortunately, that's what Sony have lost by being so slow to react to the market.
I'm shocked they didnt announce the F5, must be more development time needed. The price range is about right, $25K - 4k - outboard recorder needed to record 4K ect ect...
as for everything else, I think Sony is too heavily invested in "protecting" other cameras to do anything innovative anymore. It's really sad to see what they did with the F3 line and how little effort they did to make it a great camera system that people were asking for over RED or Alexa. It really is the perfect camera between them but as I said before... NO education out there to show this.
Unfortunately I think Sony kinda got blindsided by Alexa and its popularity - almost the same specs as the F3 but with a little more crispness in its picture - better internal recording options - and a raw option for outboard recorder. Sony way SOOO close to beating this out, and all they had to do was design the damn thing to sit on your shoulder and do 50mbs.
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to design a "Cinema" camera to have a shoulder mount ability with that style in mind. Why build it like a handycam??????????!!!!
Stupid engineers and their weird design killed a lot of possibility I feel. If they added a few more thousand dollars into the price and build it slightly better and had just a little better ergonomics, I believe there would be a lot of "asking by name" happening with the F3 that happened with Alexa.
Oh well, I know I'm sort of in a different realm as most of you on here anyway, and I really dont shoot anything other than strictly cinematic work, but I feel Sony gave me a taste of something great, but then didn't deliver on its name for performance. The performance is there in the F3, but they didn't hold up their end of the bergen to get its name out there for cinematic clients. They all ask for Alexa and RED or even the damn 5D... I dont get it... but I guess I never will.
I dont feel bad for the F3, I think its still doing a lot better name wise than the F65 haha. That camera... super amazing... not one damn thing being talked about it lol, all I hear is Alexa this, Alexa that... Alexa Studio is kicking major asss right now in the feature film world. Specially with Roger Dekins pushing it on the new Bond film. If you can shoot a bond film with it... you can shoot anything with it.
M. Knight used the F65 on his new feature coming out soon, but its not making nearly enough noise as Alexa... Even all my cinematography magazines and camera gear magazines... they all have stories about films shot on Alexa. Sorta getting sick of hearing about it haha.
As for me, I'm heading 4K for better or for worse... Its going to cost me A LOT of money in harddrives and new computer systems and restrictions on data on set, and weather.... BUT the image might just be worth all of that in the end. I just hope that when the F5 does hit the market, that I dont kick myself in the ass and wanna come crawling back to it haha.
as for everything else, I think Sony is too heavily invested in "protecting" other cameras to do anything innovative anymore. It's really sad to see what they did with the F3 line and how little effort they did to make it a great camera system that people were asking for over RED or Alexa. It really is the perfect camera between them but as I said before... NO education out there to show this.
Unfortunately I think Sony kinda got blindsided by Alexa and its popularity - almost the same specs as the F3 but with a little more crispness in its picture - better internal recording options - and a raw option for outboard recorder. Sony way SOOO close to beating this out, and all they had to do was design the damn thing to sit on your shoulder and do 50mbs.
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to design a "Cinema" camera to have a shoulder mount ability with that style in mind. Why build it like a handycam??????????!!!!
Stupid engineers and their weird design killed a lot of possibility I feel. If they added a few more thousand dollars into the price and build it slightly better and had just a little better ergonomics, I believe there would be a lot of "asking by name" happening with the F3 that happened with Alexa.
Oh well, I know I'm sort of in a different realm as most of you on here anyway, and I really dont shoot anything other than strictly cinematic work, but I feel Sony gave me a taste of something great, but then didn't deliver on its name for performance. The performance is there in the F3, but they didn't hold up their end of the bergen to get its name out there for cinematic clients. They all ask for Alexa and RED or even the damn 5D... I dont get it... but I guess I never will.
I dont feel bad for the F3, I think its still doing a lot better name wise than the F65 haha. That camera... super amazing... not one damn thing being talked about it lol, all I hear is Alexa this, Alexa that... Alexa Studio is kicking major asss right now in the feature film world. Specially with Roger Dekins pushing it on the new Bond film. If you can shoot a bond film with it... you can shoot anything with it.
M. Knight used the F65 on his new feature coming out soon, but its not making nearly enough noise as Alexa... Even all my cinematography magazines and camera gear magazines... they all have stories about films shot on Alexa. Sorta getting sick of hearing about it haha.
As for me, I'm heading 4K for better or for worse... Its going to cost me A LOT of money in harddrives and new computer systems and restrictions on data on set, and weather.... BUT the image might just be worth all of that in the end. I just hope that when the F5 does hit the market, that I dont kick myself in the ass and wanna come crawling back to it haha.
starcentral
Veteran
The F3 was originally announced in November wasn't it?
Viddovation
Veteran
It's interesting reading these threads - there's frequently a lot of complaining about why we don't get product X at time Y. "But they'd make buttloads of money if they just did Z!" everyone says.
What I think is easy for us end users to forget is the development time that goes into these products. It's easy for us to dream up the perfect camera, and even cite examples of why it's possible. But just because technology A, B, and C exist, doesn't mean there won't hurdles for a specific manufacturer to combine them. Putting aside direct engineering time involved, there may be complicated patents and licensing issues that slow down or even halt a product release.
RED has historically been very open in announcing it's upcoming product line. It's generated plenty of enthusiasm, and then criticism when products failed to materialize on the original schedule. Most other companies, Sony included, hold their cards close to the chest. There are numerous practical reasons for this, many of which boil down to not giving their competitors an opportunity to respond to market. And RED's openness did give competitors like Sony and Panasonic the opportunity to see the enthusiasm that existed for large sensor video cameras.
Many people have complained about what the PMW-F3 failed to include. But let's review the inception of the PMW-F3 - it was hinted at NAB 2010, specs revealed in fall 2010, and released in February 2011, with the 4:4:4 and 3D options incomplete. Why not release a complete product? Because they needed to get to market and compete with Panasonic AF-100 - which also was announced NAB 2010, specs in the fall, and released December 2011. The timing of Sony's release info about the F3 was all in response to press releases about the AF100. And they were quick to tell us in early 2011 about the FS100, hoping to slow down AF100 sales yet again.
Then the Canon C300 was released with CLOG included. Sony crapped their pants, yes. It was a mess. But they did drop the price on SLOG, and essentially started including it for free.
Sony *is* responsive. They *are* listening. The info is around you, if you just read between the lines.
And guys, keep in mind, developing new products takes time. We were lucky to get the F3 as soon as we did. Look at the sucker - it's a frankenstein PMW-EX1. They stole the software, the base hardware, switched out the sensor, and added some new boards. But at heart, it's a bastardized EX1. I'm sure Sony is paying attention to the Alexa, and RED. And the next thing will probably address and fix much of what's been moaned about, but we're asking for them to announce a replacement to a product only released a year and a half ago? The Sony EX1 was released in 2007, and they only announced a true replacement - the Sony PMW-200, less than a month ago. That's nearly 5 years.
As Ned said... patience...
What I think is easy for us end users to forget is the development time that goes into these products. It's easy for us to dream up the perfect camera, and even cite examples of why it's possible. But just because technology A, B, and C exist, doesn't mean there won't hurdles for a specific manufacturer to combine them. Putting aside direct engineering time involved, there may be complicated patents and licensing issues that slow down or even halt a product release.
RED has historically been very open in announcing it's upcoming product line. It's generated plenty of enthusiasm, and then criticism when products failed to materialize on the original schedule. Most other companies, Sony included, hold their cards close to the chest. There are numerous practical reasons for this, many of which boil down to not giving their competitors an opportunity to respond to market. And RED's openness did give competitors like Sony and Panasonic the opportunity to see the enthusiasm that existed for large sensor video cameras.
Many people have complained about what the PMW-F3 failed to include. But let's review the inception of the PMW-F3 - it was hinted at NAB 2010, specs revealed in fall 2010, and released in February 2011, with the 4:4:4 and 3D options incomplete. Why not release a complete product? Because they needed to get to market and compete with Panasonic AF-100 - which also was announced NAB 2010, specs in the fall, and released December 2011. The timing of Sony's release info about the F3 was all in response to press releases about the AF100. And they were quick to tell us in early 2011 about the FS100, hoping to slow down AF100 sales yet again.
Then the Canon C300 was released with CLOG included. Sony crapped their pants, yes. It was a mess. But they did drop the price on SLOG, and essentially started including it for free.
Sony *is* responsive. They *are* listening. The info is around you, if you just read between the lines.
And guys, keep in mind, developing new products takes time. We were lucky to get the F3 as soon as we did. Look at the sucker - it's a frankenstein PMW-EX1. They stole the software, the base hardware, switched out the sensor, and added some new boards. But at heart, it's a bastardized EX1. I'm sure Sony is paying attention to the Alexa, and RED. And the next thing will probably address and fix much of what's been moaned about, but we're asking for them to announce a replacement to a product only released a year and a half ago? The Sony EX1 was released in 2007, and they only announced a true replacement - the Sony PMW-200, less than a month ago. That's nearly 5 years.
As Ned said... patience...
eddavid
Carbonite Member
just shot on the c300 today. C log doesn't hold as well as S log, by far. And I still couldn't figure out how to get the white balance on manual mode a la the f3. The skin tones were all slightly off. F3 with samurai is still my favorite weapon for doc work. Most producers can call any camera, it's your job to set them straight.
starcentral
Veteran
From: http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/misc/cinemaEOS_faq.shtml
"Does the C300 support automatic white balance?
No. There are ways to dial in the white balance in manual degrees Kelvin, as well as a white balance button feature and presets for daylight and tungsten, but there is no AUTO WB setting included in the camera."
^ is that seriously for real?
But in fact I'm quite certain the F3 in SLOG mode doesn't offer white balance either unless that's changed recently. However using SLOG via Picture Profile via firmware v1.4 you can definitely dial it in yourself, but shux I never thought to try an actual white balance to see what happens. I'm pretty sure it would work as PP SLOG is just another picture profile.
"Does the C300 support automatic white balance?
No. There are ways to dial in the white balance in manual degrees Kelvin, as well as a white balance button feature and presets for daylight and tungsten, but there is no AUTO WB setting included in the camera."
^ is that seriously for real?
But in fact I'm quite certain the F3 in SLOG mode doesn't offer white balance either unless that's changed recently. However using SLOG via Picture Profile via firmware v1.4 you can definitely dial it in yourself, but shux I never thought to try an actual white balance to see what happens. I'm pretty sure it would work as PP SLOG is just another picture profile.
I dont like the image at all from the C300 and would shoot F3 over C300 any day. I don't know why anyone even spent that kinda money on that weird little camera. That was like RED all over again... everyone being fanboys. I go with there quality vs price is, and thats it. I dont stick to name brands. Hence me jumping ship from Sony. I go where the quality is the highest for the amount of money I can afford. I will never be a "fan boy" to any brand and follow it blind.
I HATED Mac computers for years and laughed at them. The only time I finally wanted one was when the introduced the power of intel processors, THEN they were worth the money with that new power. I DO NOT fan boy. So seeing people go crazy over C300 was just mind boggling. At least RED fb's can say they have the highest resolution and RAW... what do the C300 people showboat over... they have a canon mount? lol I dont know....
I feel I've been asking for the SAME camera for many years now. This is nothing new. s35mm sensor in a shoulder mount body style with hard buttons and HD-SDI out. Thats it. And Sony could have hit that market for years. Heck JVC was RIGHT THERE. The next logical step from their 700u camera would have been to put a larger sensor in that body with the same codec and be done with it. They would have made a killing. They dropped the ball because they didnt invest enough into the large sensor game. They kept banking on 1/3" sensors and even 1/4" consumer sensors.
I was in a meeting with JVC... they had NO clue what they had in their hands, they had the perfect camera body with perfect codec and everything. all they had to do was invest in the development for 35mm sensor and boooom instant hit. Its not about developing time, its about understanding your users. We always wanted the same things for years, it never changed. We never kept asking for different things years after years... We've always wanted 35mm depth, removable lenses, lots of dynamic range, and uncompressed outputs.
The Alexa was the final push to kill film, and im glad it did. I was a film guy, but its such a super wasteful process, time, money, and materials that pollute. All film did was waste for very little return. I loved the organic way of film, but... umm so what? Am I on set to enjoy the clincking sound of sprockets and celluloid, or to make beautiful images that makes my clients happy with a quick turn around time, and on budget? - The people that hold on to the nostalgia will be hurting in the end when they find themselves in a filmless world with no skills to move towards digital.
They will sit there and try to meter light with their sekonic meters and just get the exposures all wrong, and complain about the sound and feel of film. While others will be passed that and making beautiful images.
I HATED Mac computers for years and laughed at them. The only time I finally wanted one was when the introduced the power of intel processors, THEN they were worth the money with that new power. I DO NOT fan boy. So seeing people go crazy over C300 was just mind boggling. At least RED fb's can say they have the highest resolution and RAW... what do the C300 people showboat over... they have a canon mount? lol I dont know....
I feel I've been asking for the SAME camera for many years now. This is nothing new. s35mm sensor in a shoulder mount body style with hard buttons and HD-SDI out. Thats it. And Sony could have hit that market for years. Heck JVC was RIGHT THERE. The next logical step from their 700u camera would have been to put a larger sensor in that body with the same codec and be done with it. They would have made a killing. They dropped the ball because they didnt invest enough into the large sensor game. They kept banking on 1/3" sensors and even 1/4" consumer sensors.
I was in a meeting with JVC... they had NO clue what they had in their hands, they had the perfect camera body with perfect codec and everything. all they had to do was invest in the development for 35mm sensor and boooom instant hit. Its not about developing time, its about understanding your users. We always wanted the same things for years, it never changed. We never kept asking for different things years after years... We've always wanted 35mm depth, removable lenses, lots of dynamic range, and uncompressed outputs.
The Alexa was the final push to kill film, and im glad it did. I was a film guy, but its such a super wasteful process, time, money, and materials that pollute. All film did was waste for very little return. I loved the organic way of film, but... umm so what? Am I on set to enjoy the clincking sound of sprockets and celluloid, or to make beautiful images that makes my clients happy with a quick turn around time, and on budget? - The people that hold on to the nostalgia will be hurting in the end when they find themselves in a filmless world with no skills to move towards digital.
They will sit there and try to meter light with their sekonic meters and just get the exposures all wrong, and complain about the sound and feel of film. While others will be passed that and making beautiful images.
starcentral
Veteran
Speaking of other manufacturers, what I can't believe is Panasonic stuck it out with the AF100 this long - where is their super 35mm digital camera?
this is true, and they might just launch when all is quiet and they might have a leg up on the competition then