Next generation F3

Amen 3.
Sony's F3=brilliant picture. SLOG=complete debacle. FS700 4K is a complete mystery and sham. (I own both, which I think gives me license to complain).
The F3 has allowed me to make some coin, but their customer satisfaction is low-priority, future-proofing nonexistent, and camera design by someone who obviously has never been the in field.
I've drank the Red koolaid and like it. The offer a path that makes customers feel like they matter. Epic, here I come!
 
Grahamrobbins5 said:
@filmdude you sir speak the truth they are horrible at marketing, I have used the F65 twice now and it is a great camera on both occasions it really impressed me. Sadly I have met tons of other dp's who have never even heard of it. My friend owns one as well as two alexa's and he says sadly the F65 never is requested.
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The Alexa is a producer's dream, and excellent at what it does.

When you have no reason for 4K (theatrical release or extra resolution for plates/SFX), the F65 is simply too much camera to take on just for the hell of it.
 
Actually a number of producers here in New England DO ask for the F-3, why? Workflow with the known reliable of XDCAM and the shallow DOF and noiseless images. Euro broadcast aside, no one here cares about 50 vs 35 Mbs for corporate work. And Slog is not talked about for the same workflow reasons. Just pack your ND window gels and roll the camera, we've got a budget and time deadline!
 
Went to a Sony launch of their FS700(Melbourne 28th Aug).I was terribly confused with it no date to a 4K firmware (not even early or late 2013).No external 4K recorder has a single 3G SDI input.No 3rd party are working on the last thing I mentioned.It's ergonomically a nightmare.At question time I asked the Sony reps about the F5 and no one had heard of it.Strange days in deed .
 
I attended a workshop at a film festival recently where Sony spoke about a few new cameras they were releasing, one of them being the FS700 and the 4k option it would have. More and more I'm less excited about these tactics Sony is using to make people feel like they are future-proofing their purchase, when really Sony doesn't even sell what we ask for. If Sony doesn't do the right thing soon in terms of bitrate, 4k, etc.. I may drink the RED koolaid very soon.
 
Having only purchased my f3 in May, I'm a little concerned about its shelf-life.
 
I would not worry too much. It's not like you just bought and SD camera and HD just came out. You have a very nice camera there. It produces a beautiful image in 1080. And 1080 is going to be here long enough for your camera to pay for it's self.

We now have a 'Video" camera that is affordable and produces an image that rivals $100,000 dollar 35mm cameras. The F-3 with the right additions, produces a more than acceptable image, that is going to stay very, very acceptable for a while.

Plus, we can be the the more affordable option to producers, who may not have the budget for a full blown Alexa packages. And they can get pretty damn close with the F-3 and be very happy. Just keep up the education to clients on how close it really is.
 
Jason Davenport said:
Plus, we can be the the more affordable option to producers, who may not have the budget for a full blown Alexa packages. And they can get pretty damn close with the F-3 and be very happy. Just keep up the education to clients on how close it really is.
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This is the main problem, there IS NO educating producers when it comes to this. My only living is being a DP and for 10 years I've done this and its impossible to get producers to get their heads around gear specs.

There is a small difference between Alexa and F3 dynamic range wise, yet theres no explaining that without charts and images and all kinds of stuff. I've had producers literally tell me that RED MX has more dynamic range than F3 with Slog which is totally false... All the get is wrong information left and right and get played with "the name game" of brands.

It's Sony's issue for not educating people up front with beautiful images.... What does RED do when a new sensor or camera comes out on their line? They get ASC, SOC, and major gaffers and editors to shoot and put together a reel of AMAZING footage and then slap it on big screens all around the world. Thats what gets people excited.

What did Sony do? I went to all the Sony meetings... at most 75 people showed up (invitation was open, but no one really knew about these) and they only showed footage from... well amateur and students who were allowed to use the camera ahead of time... REALLY???? The footage was nice, but there was no dynamic lighting, no great camera moves, nothing that wowed me cinematicly.

If I wasn't a DP and understood what I was seeing and instead a producer, I wouldnt be wowed.

What did Alexa do? They hired one of the best digital FX companies in LA to handle a huge green screen shoot with lots and lots of difficult lighting situations and camera movement - on top of that all the grading and Keying done and it looked beautiful. Again great DP's behind it.

The 700 is a joke to me, an 8 grand camera that says its 4k ready, but with NO idea on how much its going to cost to get the 4K out of it, and we all know how sony loves to charge for a firmware update to get usability out of something... Lets get the FS700 at 8,000 then put out a 4K recorder that is 12,000 and media thats 2000 each.... OH but wait, you also must pay 800-3000 for an upgrade key to allow the 4K possible first. Who are they kidding??

And those numbers aren't made up, thats what sony did to us with the F3 and 4:4:4 recorder. You're 50K in with tons of propitiatory gear just to get those specs to work... When you're competing with companies that have a whole kit you can buy at 1/3rd that price for a full 4K solution you're just behind.

Now I LOVE the F3 image, and its amazing image allows me to do stuff I just couldn't do at budgets. A lot of budgets dont like the 4K workflow and HDD space needed. So Alexa is the next idea... But the F3 just gets skipped over a lot of times purely because no education giving out and no WOW factor was shown when it first came out.

If you're putting millions behind a camera system, take the time and money out to hire an ASC DP who can kick ass and light and move the camera dynamically to show off its full potential at launch. Oh and DONT BUILD THE CAMERA with the crappiest ugliest excuse for a VF ever. I've never see something so crappy in my life on a professional camera. It was made by people who have no idea what works in the field.

Bottom line is, Sony has 594859458932405 different items they sell. They dont have the ability to invest the time to handle pushing a product well. They sell everything under the sun now. They have drowned themselves out of their own market. The F900 changed the world of cinematography when it came out. That camera did in the late 90's what RED did for the mid 2000's All they had to do was continue on that rout. The only made a few pro cameras, there were broadcast cameras, and then the F900 and that was it.

People asked for the F900 by name, lucas shot starwars with some panavized ones and everyone loved them. CineAlta was a name at that time. In fact back then Sony got a bunch of amazing directors and DP's to shoot with the F900 and produce cinematic short films. They then put that on DVD mastered at the highest quality and had a whole DVD set. There was I think 5 or 6 DVD sets in all - VERY interesting short filmes, with all kinds of themes. Sony then GAVE THESE FOR FREE out, you could order them on the website and sony would pay the shipping and everything, in 1 week you got your DVD and could watch great work on the F900... I still have one of those dvd's

Where did that marketing team go??? Time to hire some DP's and get back on the top. Stop letting the engineers run the show. They also need to realize that the Japanese way of thinking DOES NOT work with western cinematography styles.... Look at the C300... That thing is just a nightmare, I remember it looked like a hairblow dryer the first prototype they showed... Japan needs to understand their weird futuristic curves and small sizes that dont fit on a shoulder, and odd menus and weird futuristic button positions DO NOT work in professional cinema.

Give us a compact shoulder mounted camera like the JVCHD100 but with a S35mm sensor and you've got a winner... Why did JVC drop the ball on that? Because they went with SMALL and unprofessional cameras. They were at the top too and changed the game when introducing a real Fujinon lens with interchangeable mount which PS Tech made a HUGE amount of money on by making 35mm adapters for it.

The pattern is simple. Make a camera ergonomic for a DP to use and decent specs, and you've got a winner. Push it would beautiful footage and you're done. I really hope JVC slaps an s35mm chip into their HD700u's body. That would be AWESOME, small but not too small, right usability with minimal additions needed.

Rant 2 ended. :p
 
FilmDude said:
This is the main problem, there IS NO educating producers when it comes to this. My only living is being a DP and for 10 years I've done this and its impossible to get producers to get their heads around gear specs.
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You make a number of great points, but I would say this: I don't try to educate producers... I sell them. If that sounds like a semantic difference, it is in a way, but it's also a mindset. As technical individuals, we tend to buy products because they have the correct qualities to perform well at price point. But most consumers buy products because they've been sold on it, that it's shiny, and will make their life better. Most consumers make emotional purchasing decisions, not rational ones.

And you're the primary product, not the camera. If the producer believes in you, and you say "I can say money by using X, and no one will notice" they'll do it. It's an uphill battle, I know. And it would be great if Sony did some of the work for us. But I've sold a number of people on using the F3 who originally were considering going Canon o
 
Selling clients is a good maneuver but most of my clients really don't care what I use, they just trust me.
However, I have any problem selling Red though. Red has done the work for me.
(I more often choose my F3 though).
 
That's exactly my point - they trust you. Maybe you're not actively selling, but that's because they're already sold on you.
 
Absolutely...in fact, sometimes I even try to engage them in the "what should we shoot with" conversation and it's usually, "We don't care...use what's best".
However, I usually get more attention when showing up with the Red than the Sony.
 
It's a shame Sony approach the separation of their products in the way that they do (though to be fair that does appear to be changing considerably at the moment). An F3 that used the same sensor, and simply included SLOG and ProRes recording to SxS onboard - would sell like wildfire.

Without RAW capabilities it wouldn't challenge the F65 on the high-end, but you'd have a camera that delivers just about everything TV production could ask for (at a substantially lower entry point than Alexa).
 
I'd just like to say that I am delighted with my F3. I use it on as many shoots as I can, and I am really happy with the results of shooting S-LOG onto the internal cards (I do use it to my Samurai occassionally). For corporate work and the majority of shooting, the internal codec is just fine. I have become more and more accustomed to the camera and have become more comfortable and confident shooting with it on each job. I make a decent living using it alongside my 2/3 eng camera, the Sony PDW-700 and see no reason at all why I should have to invest in any new equipment for some time to come. 4K isn't even on the radar. HD TV isn't even 2K yet and won't be for a while/ I produce corporate work for some big names in the corporate market and they are delighted with the quality of work I produce. I have no regrets about investing in my F3 and the extras, the Movie Tube rig, the Primes lenses I am invested in, Samurai, etc. My current set up with this camera and my PDW-700 cover me for almost everything. The F3 is an awesome camera. Don't forget we didn't pay huge money for the camera. It produces amazing images and can be used in multiple situations. Sony have made too many camera models without any any regard to existing cameras, however some of the cameras they produce, such as the F3 and PDW-700 are really top class. Too many people are pixel peeping etc and not enough are just out there improving their trade and being content in what they have. Sparky x
 
Amen Sparky! Every time I get my SLOG footage into Davinci, I'm amazed. Shot some stuff with the FS700 too--it's no F3, I'll tell ya!
Happy Shooting!
 
Sparky874 said:
I'd just like to say that I am delighted with my F3. I use it on as many shoots as I can, and I am really happy with the results of shooting S-LOG onto the internal cards (I do use it to my Samurai occassionally). For corporate work and the majority of shooting, the internal codec is just fine. I have become more and more accustomed to the camera and have become more comfortable and confident shooting with it on each job. I make a decent living using it alongside my 2/3 eng camera, the Sony PDW-700 and see no reason at all why I should have to invest in any new equipment for some time to come. 4K isn't even on the radar. HD TV isn't even 2K yet and won't be for a while/ I produce corporate work for some big names in the corporate market and they are delighted with the quality of work I produce. I have no regrets about investing in my F3 and the extras, the Movie Tube rig, the Primes lenses I am invested in, Samurai, etc. My current set up with this camera and my PDW-700 cover me for almost everything. The F3 is an awesome camera. Don't forget we didn't pay huge money for the camera. It produces amazing images and can be used in multiple situations. Sony have made too many camera models without any any regard to existing cameras, however some of the cameras they produce, such as the F3 and PDW-700 are really top class. Too many people are pixel peeping etc and not enough are just out there improving their trade and being content in what they have. Sparky x
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I'm delighted with my F3 as well image wise, and with S-log its wonderful. I'm extremely satisfied with the internal codec, its so strong with the super clean sensor.

But I believe you're in a different shooting realm than I'm in. I dont shoot any corporate at all, or events, or anything like that. I strictly shoot scripted cinematic work and for that, the F3 lacks (in the producers eyes) the power to compete with other cinema systems out there.

Also you speak about 2K tv isnt here yet... but actually 4k tv IS here, the USA is slow to adapt to new technologies. There are 4K tv's being pushed on the market now, and talk of 4k broadcasting and even direct to tv movie releases in 4k

It IS here, thats like the people saying 5 - 6 years ago that film will be around for at least another 20 + years.... NEVER underestimate how fast this market moves now. 4K entered into the projection world really fast, I remember it went from 2K "standard" to 4k "standard in the matter of only a few years. (which by the way Sony did)

Dont forget that only a few years ago we were all loving 1/3" and 1/2" chip cameras with 35mm adapters. Thats now gone the way of the dinosaurs.

Am I satisfied with 2k? absolutely, but are the productions and producers satisfied with it? eh... not when most cameras will be 4k in the next 2 years. Youtube already is 4K for the past year. And on new Mac retna displays coming out that show 4k its even easier for people to enjoy it.

For me, I could shoot with the F3 for the next 2-3 years, but my clients are making that slightly impossible now. The Alexa 4K is around the corner too, which means a lot of used Alexa 2k cameras will be on the market too, keep that in the back of your mind
 
here in the UK, HD is only broadcast at 1420x1080 (despite them asking viewers to purchase full HD sets), and there are no signs that this will change anytime soon. I am not disputing that higher resolution screens are available, but in the broadcast world fully streamed 2k images are a way off. I can appreciate that it is different for the film market, but in the world of broadcast and corporate productions, I am extremely happy!
 
Oh, mine... Reading these forums can get you in to a Zombie zone! Makes you sell all your current gear and the rest of your belongings and go and buy a new "X"K camera... And then, you are good for a few months.... Eeeeeeh, no!
 
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