VaricamLT: New type of external recorder for LT (and other cameras)?

M

Milan O.

Well-known member
A couple of days ago I saw people commenting on Mr Keaton's post about the new firmware for the Odyssey 7Q(+) and some of those comments included wishes about new features on a new recorder from Convergent Design. I have the first version of the Odyssey, the 7Q, and it has served me well. My only real "complaints" are the size (yes it's small but it would be lovely if it was smaller) and the screen brightness. When reading those comments I started thinking about what I would really like to have in an external recorder. Since I own the Varicam LT and FS700 and mostly work alone, I started thinking about if there might be a completely different design that might work better for me. Since the EVA1 is about to be released soon and will have raw recording capabilities paired with an external recorder, I was also thinking about if it would be possible to make something that works with it and other similar models (size and raw recording capabilities).

One thing that can be a problem with smaller cameras, is how to power accessories like an external recorder, monitor, wireless follow focus and so on. Another thing is that you'd also need a power cable going into the external recorder even if you power it from a larger camera.
So I came up with an idea (that I'm certain someone else has thought about too) on how to make another type of external recorder that would work on many cameras.

The idea is simple:
1. Make it the same size as a V-lock battery plate, to be sandwiched between the camera and the battery, like this but probably bigger: http://www.idxtek.com/products/md-nbv/
2. Let the camera side be changeble to adapt for different battery types, and make that adapter with a bulit in and hight adjustable rod support, since other battery mounts probably aren't as sturdy as V-lock or Gold-mount. (Or maybe a detachable rod support on the recorder, and a cable with a battery adapter going from the recorder to the camera would be better. This would then use one of the power outputs, but it needs the V-lock/Gold mount for it to be an interesting option for use on larger cameras.)
3. Have a power input (for power if not using batteries), some power outputs and some SDI/HDMI inputs and outputs on the recorder, and a simple menu control with a small LCD.
4. Make it with SSD slots, like now, or some other media with high write speeds.
5. Make it controllable with an app via wifi.
6. Make a separate high quality monitor with a touch screen, which can display the image and control the recorder as an option for those who for some reasons prefer not to use wifi. This should be an accessory.

The reason why I would prefer something like this is that it would hopefully (depending on size) let me have it on my camera "all the time" and will take up less space than the recorders available now. Cables are a PITA and I would really like to minimize the use of those as far as possible. The only real disadvantages (that I can think of right now) with this is that it might be a bit more difficult to control and also more difficult to look at recorded material (but if you have the monitor accessory or another monitor connected via SDI, it isn't), on the other hand maybe something could be played on the small LCD. The advantages are size, less cables, placement and that you can use whatever monitor you prefer. Another thing is that it would make it easier to record raw on a Varicam LT on a steadicam or gimbal. Like it is now it needs two SDI-cables to output high speed or 12-bit raw. The best place to put the O7Q on a steadicam is where the monitor should be, but the O7Q isn't really made for that sort of work IMO, because the screen isn't bright enough, and it also needs two SDI-cables to go through the post to the recorder. I think it would be better to have the possibility to have the recorder on the camera (without creating a "Franken-rig") and using something different as a monitor.

Simply put it would be something like the Codex on the Varicam Pure, but with some cables and of course different capability.

Is it a good idea or would most people not buy it?
I'm pretty sure I'd buy something like this if it was available and get a separate bright monitor for when I need one.
 
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Love it, making it modular.

This would be great - throw a recorder in a pocket, lens belt pouch, backpack, or camera mount it. Keep it super light and small. Could use the recorder with a super small and lightweight monitor positioned where you want it. Or kit it out for larger.

This is much needed... would buy...

Seems ridiculous to add an Odyssey 7Q to a GH5 or Sony A7s, etc. -- defeats the point of small and light -- and yet those are the cameras that stand the most to benefit!!

And when it comes to the EVA-1, you still add a ton of bulk with such a large external recorder.

Come on Odyssey/Atomos, I hope you are listening
 
At least one person likes the idea... :D

I agree with you. If you have a small camera you also want to have a small recorder. On the other hand, if your camera is big you probably don't want to make it bigger. I think that in most cases reducing the size is what people want. On the other hand a recorder needs to work well with several models, otherwise it will be very expensive to make. I think that it would be a good choice for the manufacturers making a small and "rig friendly" version of their recorders. As the internal codecs in camera keep getting better the need of having a recorder reduces. If the benefit of using an external recorder (raw or much better codec) is greater than the inconvenience (size, powering and cables), then I think people will still use them.

Take the Varicam LT as an example: The internal codec is very good and the images are lovely. I avoid shooting raw, not only because of the file size but it will keep the rig much smaller and easier to use. In fact, I haven't used raw on a single job I've done. But, if the recorder could be more "integrated" like I suggested, I might have used it.

When I've used the O7Q with my FS700 I've done it because the internal codec isn't good enough, despite the size, but I would really have liked if the recorder was less bulky.
For one man band type of people, having a 7" monitor on an external recorder can be a bit too much, and if the point with the smaller cameras is to make them gimbal friendly, then the external recorders should be too. IMO the Atomos recorders are just too big, I would never buy them because of their size and weight.
 
When I saw the first iteration of the Odyssey, I suggested to Dan that combining a monitor and recorder didn't seem like a great idea to me. Onboard monitors tend to get moved around a lot and the cables are susceptible to snagging and thus failure. This is most especially the case with HDMI which as we all know is an absolute catastrophe of a connector for anything other than behind a home theater component that doesn't move. I've always felt that the best place for a recorder is integrated into the build with the cables protected. Dual sandwich plates between the battery and camera is a pretty decent bet, although neither v-mount nor gold mount are 100% ideal as they can have a little bit of play, which is exaggerated by having multiple mounts and more weight leveraged further away.

Regardless of what I think, the combo monitor/recorder market has been quite successful (it's a good thing Dan didn't listen to me that day) but I do agree with you Milan, and like the idea of a two-piece system with communication between the monitor and recorder and/or wifi control. I can see that a lot of people would think that this is fixing an idea that isn't broken, so it would likely be a hard sell.

After needing a recorder for a couple of things I added a Shogun Flame to my package this year and have found a myriad of uses for it since. I do ocassionally press it into service with my A7S to record in 4K and thus had to add a Tilta cage to be able to secure it, but it's still an awkward setup to be sure.
 
As often a OMB on many productions, I purchased the Pix E5 recorder a year or so ago and it has served me well with the fs7 (decided against raw after initially testing it with the 7Q+). It's size is perfect for me in those situations - as well as using it with smaller gimbal type scenario and I much prefer the usb3 ssd drives (and can power it and camera with v-lock battery). But have similar complaints with sometimes awkward set ups.
While making that wish list for recorders...and while I'm dreaming big... let's also ask for the new connector to replace that pesky hdmi ....and/or some std wireless protocol / nfc for all camera's so that mfg's of monitors / recorders could have built-in wifi and eliminate some cables.
 
I think O7Q was a great idea at the time, partly because the screen was good (although not bright), it included many features and was lightweight even compared to some monitors. The price was good too, just a few years before that I paid more for a small Marshall monitor that only had HDMI in (and those old school video inputs).
But, this was a couple of years ago. Even though I believe that this type of monitor/recorder still has its uses and is probably something I'd like to own too, I'd prefer to have something smaller and more integrated as I mostly work alone and usually carry all of my things by myself. As you say Charles, there is some play in V-lock/Gold mount but maybe there could be a solution to that. Maybe a battery plate which is included with the recorder, with a threaded hole, so the recorder is locked in like a battery first but then there's also a thumbscrew with which you can secure it to the battery plate?

Nowadays there are highres bright screens coming out all the time, and while I love the O7Q's recording capabilities and monitoring features, it is often just too big and not bright enough. I wold be very happy if CD made a new recorder that is similar to what I've described and hopefully it wouldn't cost too much to develop since they have the software and hardware. The only thing they'd need to do is change the form factor and add wifi control. (I'm not an engineer, maybe this is very difficult.)

And if I may dream on: It would be even more great if there was an integrated wireless video transmitter, maybe like a slot in option. :)

As you say, one can always find use for monitor/recorders and for smaller cameras they are great, mostly since there aren't any other options. On cameras like the Varicam LT, I would only use the monitor on the O7Q when its on a tripod. On a steadicam I'd prefer to have another monitor and also I would need to have two 3G SDI-cables for 12-bit or HFR raw recording, when its on my shoulder I use an EVF and if on a jib or somewhere else I'd need to have two long 3G SDI-cables if I wanted to use the monitor on the O7Q and record raw at the same time. For me personally the monitor/recorder solution for raw recording only makes sense in one out of four different set ups in which I use my camera.
 
I won't comment in great detail as that would be revealing secrets of my former employer. I will say that such a product idea is not new to the manufacturers at all. I will also note a couple of other factors at play.

- People love onboard monitors. Many, MANY Odysseys have been sold for use purely as a monitor. I'm talking thousands. In the early days of the product the only option besides RAW was uncompressed DPX stacks, and the only SSDs allowed were the ones made by CD. We knew how many of them were sold compared to Odysseys. We also know how many people contacted us when firmware updates came out and they didn't own an SSD to do it.

- A recorder can only get so small. If you want to record RAW and need to get above a certain framerate (like past 4K30p) then you need two SSDs to capture the files. That takes up a bunch of real estate. And the processor isn't tiny, along with the sub-drivers and the power break outs. You can't pile that stuff on top of each other because heat needs to dissipate. Odyssey is a technological feat in heat management, using no fans or venting. In fact it actually utilizes the surface of the SSDs for part of the heat dissipation.

- You mostly can do as requested above today. Don't care about the screen? Then build a cage using parts from Wooden Camera, Small Rig and the like. Surround the Odyssey, mount it behind the camera with it rotated so that the screen faces back, the SSDs slots face the operator and the SDI ports face out the dummy side. Wooden Camera makes a battery mount on a hinge so the battery can block the screen during operation but be swung out of the way to adjust settings on the OLED panel. I've seen it done and it works well, and doesn't really add a great deal of weight or bulk.

Any new product into an established market only divides of the available sales as opposed to capturing them all or generating lots of new ones. Yes there is some additional business, but it's mostly slicing the pie thinner. So the business model has to be there to justify selling any product in great enough quantity and a high enough price to make for a worthwhile investment. I'm not saying this is not a good idea, just noting some of the issues involved in why it has not been done by anyone.

The stories I could tell about some of the perfectly reasonable products that I've been involved with at various companies, and these products never made it to market. Some never got past paper specs, others were deep into design, and a few even had fully functional (and very expensive) prototypes. Never to see the light of day for various reasons. Oh well.
 
Personally, I'd like just a recorder without a monitor. I use the EVF or the included LCD to frame the subject. Adding a monitor only adds to the cost and the weight. It's wonderful to record out from the camera, but I've never understood why there is not a simple recorder using an SSD aftermarket that could be put somewhere, lightweight, not bulky.

But what do I know...
 
- A recorder can only get so small. If you want to record RAW and need to get above a certain framerate (like past 4K30p) then you need two SSDs to capture the files. That takes up a bunch of real estate. And the processor isn't tiny, along with the sub-drivers and the power break outs. You can't pile that stuff on top of each other because heat needs to dissipate. Odyssey is a technological feat in heat management, using no fans or venting. In fact it actually utilizes the surface of the SSDs for part of the heat dissipation.
Click to expand...

Wow, I always wonder why changing the SSD suddenly cool the O7Q really fast. I was having some heat problem
and whenever heat problem the O7Q shutdown - especially whenever I tape a 2-3 hours 4K. Is there a reason CD didnt
create longer fin in the back ? Next time I'll pull out the SSD to let the SSD cool off.
 
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I'd like CD to revisit the nanoFlash design, but update it for the "modern day". Maybe it was because I was using it on a "big" tape ENG camera, but it just seemed like a very small, elegant piece of gear, especially looking at the guys running around with the external monitor/recorder rigs, now. It's all very messy and cumbersome. I don't even like what Panasonic did with the little control panel. The panel itself is great, but it's placement was poorly planned and implemented.
 
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