FS7: New Sony PXW-FX9 with venice features and 6k full frame

SJX said:
I have a F35. See my Avatar. :) I know the difference. I know F65 is cmos. But is not just any cmos. Sensor is not straight. It's turned 45 degree to try to emulate what F35 sensor does with rgb. I think venice is just a straight cmos like any other camera? I know mechanical shutter is not same as global. But maybe this makes sony sees F65 as more high end? Because it has film shutter? Don't know. Just trying to speculate why venice is not replacement in sony's eyes. Is venice even global shutter? Don't remember now.


except not always. Alexa is old and is still the prefered. Sensor now is what more than 10 years old? F35 also makes nicer images than any sony. Maybe only venice compare. Never seen a venice movie yet. Not talking resolution and paper written specs. Only image. New now is not always better.
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I believe the f65 sensor is just a flat CMOS like the Venice.. more pixels .. close to 8K or something like that .. I dont think the mechanical shutter was something that ever was a big selling point for the f65.. Arri I think more the color science that anything..and menu's that were logical and German and not mad and Japanese .. Venice is not global sensor..I think thats dead in the water.. and its even native E mount !.. I dont think there is any logical reason for Sony to think that the f65 is in someway better and they haven't said that either .. its some face saver for rental houses /f65 owners .. or maybe its just to keep Storaro happy :) .. I thin k its fair to say the f65 was pretty much a flop as far as taking on Arri in that market.. but the Venice has a much better chance as it is a way better camera .. what is a new camera recently that isn't way better than what came before it.. I cant think of any.. the pixels on the f65 are rotated by 90 degrees so diamond shape rather than square.. but thats just to fit more onto the real estate AFAIK..
 
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Donny 123 said:
f65 is very old camera and was never popular.its not global shutter but a mechanical one.
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A mechanical shutter eliminates all of the problematic artifacts that a rolling shutter can introduce though (rolling shutter skew, jello and flashbanding).

So for all intents and purposes, it provides the same benefits that a true global shutter does.
 
Donny 123 said:
I believe the f65 sensor is just a flat CMOS like the Venice.. more pixels .. close to 8K or something like that .. . the pixels on the f65 are rotated by 90 degrees so diamond shape rather than square.. but thats just to fit more onto the real estate AFAIK..
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The F65 sensor was designed to cover the widest color space a camera could cover when it came out with it's very unique diagonal pattern 20 mega pixel sensor, Delivering a true 8K which was then down sampled to 4K. Unlike most Bayer sensors where interpolation is required because you only have a compliment of 50% green, 25% red and 25% blue the F65 sensor has a 100% compliment of R,G and B pixels so no de-Bbayer algorithms are required.

A really good overview of the F65 camera was done by Adam Wilt back in 2012. It was a technical break through monster back then.

The F65 has been summed up in later years by statements such as this:

"Sony F65 Sony entered the race with the introduction of the F65 camera in 2012. This camera has a native 8K image sensor down-scaled to 4K in order to fight visual artefacts and the de-Bayering process. Its large size, compared with RED EPIC and Alexa, is similar to traditional 35mm cameras. As well as not being very portable, it suffers from very high power needs. Also, its high price and the massive files that it generates, has meant that the camera has struggled to achieve market penetration. Possibly the camera is ‘too good’ and even a little ahead of its time – only time will tell but it is still an excellent camera."

Chris Young

https://www.provideocoalition.com/quick_look_sony_f65_4k_digital_cine_camera/

F65's sampling grid vs. 4K bayer-pattern.jpgF6 sensor specs.jpg
 
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Grug said:
A mechanical shutter eliminates all of the problematic artifacts that a rolling shutter can introduce though (rolling shutter skew, jello and flashbanding). So for all intents and purposes, it provides the same benefits that a true global shutter does.
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Really ? ...Because pretty much every hybrid camera like the Sony A7III or Panasonic GH5 or S1 have mechanical shutters along with electronic shutters ( you can choose which one you want to use ) and they still have minor rolling-shutter issues. I had thought that rolling shutter was all about the sensor read-out speed, so if the entire sensor can't be read in one go the camera has to scan the sensor and this scanning delay causes rolling shutter.
 
TheDingo said:
Really ? ...Because pretty much every hybrid camera like the Sony A7III or Panasonic GH5 or S1 have mechanical shutters along with electronic shutters ( you can choose which one you want to use ) and they still have minor rolling-shutter issues.
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Only for stills, not video.
 
TheDingo said:
Really ? ...Because pretty much every hybrid camera like the Sony A7III or Panasonic GH5 or S1 have mechanical shutters along with electronic shutters ( you can choose which one you want to use ) and they still have minor rolling-shutter issues. I had thought that rolling shutter was all about the sensor read-out speed, so if the entire sensor can't be read in one go the camera has to scan the sensor and this scanning delay causes rolling shutter.
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A mechanical shutter in a stills camera is very different to a mechanical shutter in a motion picture camera. Those mirrorless cameras aren’t using their mechanical shutters for motion, only stills.

A mechanical shutter for a motion picture camera is a spinning disc that covers and then reveals the sensor to light. There’s a wedge of the disc that’s open (to allow the sensor to be exposed) it’s the angle of that wedge from which we have a 180 degree shutter, or a 90, or 45.
 
cyvideo said:
The F65 sensor was designed to cover the widest color space a camera could cover when it came out with it's very unique diagonal pattern 20 mega pixel sensor, Delivering a true 8K which was then down sampled to 4K. Unlike most Bayer sensors where interpolation is required because you only have a compliment of 50% green, 25% red and 25% blue the F65 sensor has a 100% compliment of R,G and B pixels so no de-Bbayer algorithms are required.

A really good overview of the F65 camera was done by Adam Wilt back in 2012. It was a technical break through monster back then.

The F65 has been summed up in later years by statements such as this:

"Sony F65 Sony entered the race with the introduction of the F65 camera in 2012. This camera has a native 8K image sensor down-scaled to 4K in order to fight visual artefacts and the de-Bayering process. Its large size, compared with RED EPIC and Alexa, is similar to traditional 35mm cameras. As well as not being very portable, it suffers from very high power needs. Also, its high price and the massive files that it generates, has meant that the camera has struggled to achieve market penetration. Possibly the camera is ‘too good’ and even a little ahead of its time – only time will tell but it is still an excellent camera."

Chris Young

https://www.provideocoalition.com/quick_look_sony_f65_4k_digital_cine_camera/

View attachment 137126View attachment 137127
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Yes. This is what I was talking. F65 sensor is not same as other cmos. RGB not as good as F35 design but suppose better than normal cmos like F55, arri etc. Maybe this is why sony think it can exist with venice. F65 is rgb, better shutter etc. Don't know about if RAW is better than venice too but maybe is. F65 files were very big, so.
 
SJX said:
Yes. This is what I was talking. F65 sensor is not same as other cmos. RGB not as good as F35 design but suppose better than normal cmos like F55, arri etc. Maybe this is why sony think it can exist with venice. F65 is rgb, better shutter etc. Don't know about if RAW is better than venice too but maybe is. F65 files were very big, so.
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Ok thanks .. yes interesting your right there was some mojo with the f65 sensor.. but great as it was it never really caught on as feature film camera.. in fact quite the opposite .. the Arri way lower K sensor 2.8/3,2K became the default.. because it looked better.. who would have thought ..:) .. the camera was also very big and not a great design.. The Venice is the first Sony camera color science where they eventually decided to calibrate it to look " nice.". rather than match to charts 100%..

Mechanical shutter is technically a rolling shutter.. and I mean really isn't needed in a video camera..all these movies made with Alexa have not been troubled by having a rolling shutter.. if the re fresh rate is good enough you're fine.. global shutter is pretty much done .. only the f55 ..
 
But I stand by my point that the Venice is very obviously taking the place of the older f65.. that's just common sense .. and the lack of ,or usual Sony weirdness to deny it.. I would absolutely bet the farm Sony does not have a load of people and factory space making f65,s.. Im sure they have a ware house full of parts though, so it will be supports for a good few years no doubt.. as you would expect..
 
Anyone interested in the history of the F65 might be interested to watch the following clips. The camera had enormous potential.

Eldorado (Cutis Clark ASC) This film had some beautiful shots and grades from the F65
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yhu-UjpVx0

Oblivion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBVkUb_TWp8

Lucy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVt32qoyhi0

and the last one of any note that had some extreme grades was
Wonder Wheel (Dec 2017)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFM0UqX9MJ8

Grading F65 SLog2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwmIwxd4YA

With complete packages like this turning up fairly often on eBay I get tempted sometimes. I've always liked the F65 but if I did pick one up it would purely be a "me" lovely toy indulgent purchase as there is absolutely no way I could justify buying one for the business. I'll probably never end up with one but it is a camera that has held my attention ever since it came out.

https://ebay.to/2OivT7L

Chris Young
 
I'm trying to justify keeping old faithful and getting the FX9. I often have two camera ops and have been using A7III as B cam for shoots when it's a 4K 25p shoot. Sometimes though I have to hire another FS7 for those jobs that require 2 x 4K 50p cams. 50p HD has been no problems but those 50p 4k jobs are starting to creep up. There again there are going to be some good used FS7 MKII's coming on the market next year. My wallet says good used FS7II... but I 'want' an FX 9.

Chris Young
 
If I find a good deal on a used FS7 II I will go that route for now.

FX9 looks to become a great camera but there's no rush going for it.
 
When the F3 first came I couldn't justify getting it but after a few years I picked one up for half the price. So I might go the same route for the FX9.
 
And if we remember, the FS7 had some growing pains in the first year or so. I suspect there will be a bug hunt with the FX9 as well for the early adopters.
 
For me I,d love to keep the f5.. but also I have PL mount lenses .. it will probably come down to if there is any sort of trade in deal going on.. also a worry re the first firmwares .. always there will be problems its seems .. the camera is for sure a must.. just wait .. within a year every production will want FF, Venice color.. for no good reason of course .. but it will become the buzz word .. and everyone will pile onto the bandwagon..
 
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