New Sony Primes
- Thread starter GaryinCalifornia
- Start date
I don't know Mitch,
It says "Made in the UK" on the Red zooms. They have Cooke lettering, colors and hard anodizing- Cooke is the only brand I know that uses hard anodizing. I seriously doubt there is another company in the UK that could pull this off. Abacus maybe but they have zero experience with true cine lenses...
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
When compared to typical (and more expensive) cine-lenses, the CP.2's are not the best optically, especially wide open but their advantages are numberous.
CP.2's are well built.
They have plenty of witness marks.
They have a really large line up, despite non-matching open apertures. 15mm-135mm
Although I personally dislike full frame cameras, if you use full frame DSLR's, these cover the sensor, and not many cine lenses do.
They have interchangeable mounts, which is good if you use DSLR's or other cameras without PL's.
They are really small and light, which is something that can't be said for comparible lower cost lens sets, like RPP's for instance.
CP.2's are basically taking the best photography glass, and making the mechanics suited for cinematography in a way that is far and beyond the 'cinevising' we see done to photography lenses. It's a godsend to the lower budget market because it offers professional tools at a great low price. The same for C300, how it helped stop people shooting on 5d's, which is great at the end of the day for the camera dept.
My point is, any lens maker who wants to move in on the lower end of the cine market will need to produce a lens set that out performs CP.2's optically and give a run mechanically, otherwise the CP.2's are a no brainer because they are pretty versatile, especially for the lower end market.
But then again, is that the market they are gunning for?
The F55 seems to be gunning for something higher than C300, DSLR's, BMC's and etc. They want to be EPIC. So maybe their 'inexpensive' PL glass is in comparison to say S4's and Ultra's. Maybe it's "inexpensive" in the same way Schnieder Cine-Xenar's, Panchro/i's, and Illumina's are "inexpensive" when compared to the bigger PL cine lens sets like S4's and Ultra's and beyond.
Ya know?
Maybe they will deliver on that level and we are looking at 40k+ for a set.
It really depends. The F5 and F55 seem to be a whole class higher than the F3, and from what I've seen, they are aiming much higher with this glass. We should ask ourselves to whom they are talking to when they say 'inexpensive'.
CP.2's are well built.
They have plenty of witness marks.
They have a really large line up, despite non-matching open apertures. 15mm-135mm
Although I personally dislike full frame cameras, if you use full frame DSLR's, these cover the sensor, and not many cine lenses do.
They have interchangeable mounts, which is good if you use DSLR's or other cameras without PL's.
They are really small and light, which is something that can't be said for comparible lower cost lens sets, like RPP's for instance.
CP.2's are basically taking the best photography glass, and making the mechanics suited for cinematography in a way that is far and beyond the 'cinevising' we see done to photography lenses. It's a godsend to the lower budget market because it offers professional tools at a great low price. The same for C300, how it helped stop people shooting on 5d's, which is great at the end of the day for the camera dept.
My point is, any lens maker who wants to move in on the lower end of the cine market will need to produce a lens set that out performs CP.2's optically and give a run mechanically, otherwise the CP.2's are a no brainer because they are pretty versatile, especially for the lower end market.
But then again, is that the market they are gunning for?
The F55 seems to be gunning for something higher than C300, DSLR's, BMC's and etc. They want to be EPIC. So maybe their 'inexpensive' PL glass is in comparison to say S4's and Ultra's. Maybe it's "inexpensive" in the same way Schnieder Cine-Xenar's, Panchro/i's, and Illumina's are "inexpensive" when compared to the bigger PL cine lens sets like S4's and Ultra's and beyond.
Ya know?
Maybe they will deliver on that level and we are looking at 40k+ for a set.
It really depends. The F5 and F55 seem to be a whole class higher than the F3, and from what I've seen, they are aiming much higher with this glass. We should ask ourselves to whom they are talking to when they say 'inexpensive'.
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Nate Weaver
Veteran
Jacek, you're not the only respected lens tech that agreed Cooke made those in their basement. Somebody once said Joe Dunton, but Cooke made the most sense. In addition, the Digioptical domain whois points to UK as well.
I think it was an experiment they tried and eventually decided it wasn't worth the bother. I hear being a Red vendor is not all that much fun.
I personally think it's entirely likely they are. I maintain that cine prime mechanical design is likely worlds apart from their expertise (low cost plastic internal housings, servo driven), but again, I also agree they are surely VERY bright and capable.
And on that note, that's why I'm guessing these will hit a new low price. Experience, desire, and manufacturing capability IN HOUSE. Nobody has the motivation like Sony to get lenses out there in the wild. A good portion of their audience will not turn their noses up at solid, sharp, modern designs that aren't European.
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Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
I will wait for a Matt Duclos teardown to see what he says of them. 
Douglas Villalba
Well-known member
They actually said "Yes PL". Hopefully they are as good as they look, at a reasonable price and a real PL mount.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I know the person behind the original RED zooms, later "DigiOptical".
UK-based? Yes.
A person under the employ of Cooke? No.
There are other companies that did rehousing and other physical optics work in the UK. Van Dieman, Samuelson and the now-out-of business Aaton dealer are three that pop immediately to mind, and I'm sure I could come up with several more if I put my mind to it.
The entity behind those old RED lenses is the same as the one I long ago sent my 16mm Canon 7-56 zoom to be converted to a Super-16 8-64 zoom. No, it was not the dear departed Optex. It was a small shop which was only known in the circles of the local UK technical community, as they used this operation as a "back room" for custom work.
Jacek, it's possible that this company sent partsw to the same anodiser and engraver as Cooke. I know that at AbelCine we are manufacturing a few items and when we send parts to our anodiser we could choose hard anodising if we wished. It is also possible that the person in charge of this shop is an ex-Cooke employee. I never asked.
Anyway, Sony did not employ Cooke in the design or manufacture of their old or new primes. Or the company I refer to in the UK.
UK-based? Yes.
A person under the employ of Cooke? No.
There are other companies that did rehousing and other physical optics work in the UK. Van Dieman, Samuelson and the now-out-of business Aaton dealer are three that pop immediately to mind, and I'm sure I could come up with several more if I put my mind to it.
The entity behind those old RED lenses is the same as the one I long ago sent my 16mm Canon 7-56 zoom to be converted to a Super-16 8-64 zoom. No, it was not the dear departed Optex. It was a small shop which was only known in the circles of the local UK technical community, as they used this operation as a "back room" for custom work.
Jacek, it's possible that this company sent partsw to the same anodiser and engraver as Cooke. I know that at AbelCine we are manufacturing a few items and when we send parts to our anodiser we could choose hard anodising if we wished. It is also possible that the person in charge of this shop is an ex-Cooke employee. I never asked.
Anyway, Sony did not employ Cooke in the design or manufacture of their old or new primes. Or the company I refer to in the UK.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
I appreciate actually you setting this straight, Mitch. As an owner of a pair of these lenses, it's good to know they're likely still around in one form or another. I wonder if I can still get a few parts from them?
They leave something to be desired, but in other ways they're INCREDIBLY convenient and do something that few if any other zooms can do...cover a wide range and still work for one-man-band shooting. And do it under $15K.
bruceallen
Well-known member
Again, thanks for the info, Mitch!
Two more questions:
1. /i or LDS from these lenses?
2. a lot about the F5 and F55 seems good for stereo. Do you think those new Sony lenses would be well-matched enough for good stereo if for some reason you wanted to use primes - or do you think Cooke Panchros would still be the way to go if looking for lightweight primes?
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Two more questions:
1. /i or LDS from these lenses?
2. a lot about the F5 and F55 seems good for stereo. Do you think those new Sony lenses would be well-matched enough for good stereo if for some reason you wanted to use primes - or do you think Cooke Panchros would still be the way to go if looking for lightweight primes?
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Mitch Gross
Veteran
1 - Yes, they will have lens data contacts, just like the current Sony primes. I can't recall if they push out both LDS and i/Data (forgive me -- I'm a home as the hurricane has killed the power at our office). The F3 as well as the F5 & F55 can read either LDS or i/Data (in the Munu, select Lens IFL Type A or Type C to choose between the ARRI and Cooke standards).
2 - Knowing what I do about the way in which Japanese manufacturers go about making their lenses compared to the process European manufacturers such as Cooke employ, I'm going to guess (yes, a bit of a guess) that the Sony lenses will be a more consistent match from lens to lens for stereoscopic work. This is not to say that they are "better" optics, just that certain parameters are more consistent from lens to lens. For example, most Japanese manufacturers will design a precise focus scale and then work the optical/mechanical elements to get the lens to align to the scale. Cooke grinds the glass, places it into the mechanical housing and then hand-engraves the focus scale to align properly. Both yield accurate focus scales, but the Japanese way i more consistent for 3D.
Fair enough Mitch...
Just FYI hard anodizing is not something you "choose" -it's something you engineer into the product (or parts rather). Hence my conclusion since Cooke is the only one with the experience to do it...
Some "lens tech CSI" for your entertainment....
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Jon Fauer has said "not Cooke" when I ran this rumor past him. Join him with Mitch Gross and Illya Friedman (both very reputable and knowledgeable professionals), and I'd say my intuition about the whole thing was correct. Thanks RedUser for spreading misinformation yet again, hahaha. Additionally, I wrote an email to the owner of Cooke regarding some personal business but I took the opportunity to ask about these rumors, he has not gotten back to me yet, likely because of ZGC (located in New Jersey) and hurricane Sandy. But I'm sure that when he does, it will be the final nail in this rumor's coffin.
Let me drive another nail into this Cooke coffin. Sony lenses. Period. But with the LD glass and 9 blade iris among other features they will be good lenses. Evn the optics on the original PL lenses were adequate. The plastic housing was the biggest issue.
What I have not clarified from Sony is whether they will be for sale a la carte
Ned
What I have not clarified from Sony is whether they will be for sale a la carte
Ned
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Yes, they will.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Thought I'd share Les Zellen's response to my email. I've omitted parts of the conversation that are not relevant to my point. Besides being the nicest guy in the business, Les is the Z part of ZGC, and chairman/owner of Cooke Optics. He was the force behind the acquisition of Cooke in the 90's and the resulting design and manufacturing of the now famous Cooke S4 lens series, CXX zooms, i/technology, Cooke Panchro/i, Cooke 5/i and other optic products.
This should put the rumor to rest.
This should put the rumor to rest.
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HD Studio Belgium
Well-known member
The SONY SCL-PK3 PL lens Kit wit a 20mm, 25 mm and 145 mm is interesting for those who still love their PMW-F3 ...