FS7: New Sony F7 XDCAM 4K Super 35mm Camcorder

The decision to go with F5 vs FS7 does have to do mainly with your clients but there are some significant differences - Assuming that they look similar (we still don't know if the FS7 really does look as good.)

If you plan to shoot mainly with PL lenses the F5 is a no brainer, and the money difference is minor compared to the cost of your lenses - which dwarf the camera. Likewise Raw will be easier since you won't need an additional recorder (7Q).

However if you expect to use still lenses like many of us do and shoot enough handheld to feel the need for better ergonomics, lens stabilization, the occasional motorized zoom and even push auto focus then the FS7 is a much better choice. Even in HD it has the advantage over the FS700 of 422 and a highly desirable look with slog3 and the 709LUT.

I'm in the latter group so this camera is a dream come true. If the look holds up I have no doubt that this will be an extremely popular cam and knock the C300 off its perch. I suspect it may last a little longer in the marketplace as well. I mean what else is coming - a "dragon type sensor" , even faster chip. 6K or 8K? Nothing really critical. That's my guess anyway.

If the look is less than the F5 's though it may still be another transitional cam.
 
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nsoltz said:
Sam-- I agree with Dennis. You sound like an F5 buyer. FS7 will do what I need it to do at this stage. I will really miss my F3+Pix240 but I want to be ahead of the market for 4K and want raw capabilities. And as many times as I've shot the FS700, I just really dislike the ergonomics. And want a stronger internal codec when not going out to raw recorder. It does sound like you need more, so pick up an F5 (even used since I suspect a number will hit the market soon). Add the 4K and ProRes options. You will be very happy.

Ned
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The F5 has never floated my boat - I was all lined up to buy it and ended up getting the used F3 to 'sit out another round' and await the next thing (or a used F5 for cheap down the line)

Shooting is of course highly personal - a mix of being happy and pleasing the client.

I felt the F5 would not make me happy personally.. I do not feel it is well designed (and my university subject was Engineering Design)

-the earphone jack was so stupid that I did not want to give my money to idiots - I was actually cross about that.
-the media cost is wonky.. if it shot non raw to the R5 then media cost would radically alter - having two sets of costly media is just wonk (yes I now know SXS has cheap options but did not know that at the time)
-no focus check at the finger.. this is 4k guys focus is critical!
-it is too heavy - not just the camera but my FS100 is happy on miller solo sticks, my F3 needs my satchler sticks - the whole package just grows.. the F5/F3+recorder+Vlock are not solo op cameras.
-it cannot photograph a light show (rolling shutter).. an acceptable omission at $8k but unacceptable at $16k
-no speedbooster or other way of getting a RNG lens (apart from buying a Cabrio)
-shonky audio control - no pots
-no histo/wfm (at the time)
-no Centre crop (at the time)
-no WFM now
-tiny histo now
-no RGB histo or WFM (the 5dmk2 has RGB histo FFS)
-no 4k (at the time)
-no AF (handy on steadicam/gimbal)
-too heavy for my Pilot
-too heavy for cheap gimbal


A lot of this stuff does not matter for a 'crew' camera but I like operating solo - it just did not feel right for me.

In stills I use a Nikon D3 - Im used to ergonomic perfection - changing settings with happens without a thought after a week - and in comparison the F5 sucks ergonomically.

I have tested both Red and F5 in depth and walked away from them (even lined up finance et al.)- they are crew cameras not solo cameras.

Why the solo thing? Partly because I would always pay an assist a union rate - Id never have an intern on a corporate for 'political' reasons - clients should pay a living wage

So as a solo op, I personally feel the FS7 may be better than the F5 (and epic and alexa and amera)

I look forward to testing it!
 
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I'm with you on the solo thing. That's how I shoot most of the time. As I see it there's no other camera that will be as good for solo operators as the FS7.

I see no reason why the FS7 can't have the same IQ as the F5 when they probably share so many things like sensor and electronics. I heard today that October 21 is the day when the camera will arrive at retailers.
 
Osslund said:
I'm with you on the solo thing. That's how I shoot most of the time. As I see it there's no other camera that will be as good for solo operators as the FS7.

I see no reason why the FS7 can't have the same IQ as the F5 when they probably share so many things like sensor and electronics. I heard today that October 21 is the day when the camera will arrive at retailers.
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The thing about 'the solo thing' is that actually Im usually part of a crew (happy to use built F3 If I have someone to carry it or my big sticks) or no crew then its a low pay job which I can use my EX1 or maybe consider super small and light but slightly more cinematic than the EX1 the PMW X70** - a camera really small enough to climb a tree, run up a mountain, or carry round a festival all day.

EX1/X70 for solo
F3 (or BMC4k* or prodco/rent) for crew

ergo - no need for FS7 !

Who is actually paying good dollar and appreciating 'solo 4k cinema' !

S

**The X70 should be 'brodcast approved 50mbs422, SDI, unlike naked EX1/F3
*Ive really liked using the BMC4k on the film Im doing - working with an AC and soundie. it is just great if you have somone else doing sound and ND!
 
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I've also walked to path of offering different cameras for different budgets but in a way I'm done with it. It makes me work better using just one camera for all jobs and the FS7 can do just that providing great looking footage regardless of project. Considered the X70 and it looks fine but I don't want several cameras and it's not a shallow depth of field camera or with the lovely Slog.
 
Completely - I thought of selling everything and buying 2 - a really tidy kit.

I do need two cams even if just for interviews!

Really the tech is good, no asstounding, (on all cameras) it is just finding the cam(s) that fits the business model - which melds clients needs with personal style

S
 
Just a couple notes for clarity incase others read Sams list.

The Sony OLED has magnify at the touch of a button and it does not time out after so many seconds - it can stay on indefinitely. (I don't know if LCD version has this).

Sony has added more functions to the buttons on the VF so you can bring up Waveform, histogram, vector scope easily. (yes they are tiny thumbnails)

For focusing aside from peaking feature the F5/F55 also has a focus meter now which appears below center frame and gives you a strength bar when your focus is sharpest.

The F5/F55 body does now have waveform, histogram, vector scope, the VF has false color.

The headphone jack is stupid but a right angle extension resolves this like it never happened.
 
You'd have to let go of barrel and use that hand to press the button on VF.

Maybe Sony will add some ext. acc trigger or something.

Truthfully with OLED or ext monitor with decent resolution I never use magnify shooting 4K nor use peaking much - maybe sometimes as a quick check to my focus, but i've never left it on and shot.
 
Those interviews with Boyle, Bennett and Charters are pretty good. They go on to say 4K isn't 4K anyway and that once they add their stocking behind lens and diffusion in front it's not going to be 4K anyway. One of the DP's (I forget which one) says he likes 4K for reframing, stabilizing, etc.. but delivery is always 2K anyways, etc..

Now thinking about the many people who post concerns about nailing focus in 4K I can appreciate that and that it gets harder shooting solo or with little or no crew, but it's not impossible, and if it is so much an issue for the type of work and shooting you might so then why chose the 35mm sensor format to begin with? Especially if you're going to end up closing down your aperture to f8 or even higher to give yourself some more room...
 
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4k whatever - IMO 1080 is a bit crap - maybe 1080 from a 1080 camera (F35?) (maybe F3-444??) is good but I guess most 1080 cams are what 600 lines by the end of the chain which does not look to good to my eye - my personal standard

(yes Ive seen my FS100 screened in a theatre!)

'4k' Seems to hit my personal bar of quality even if the true res is 2.5k or 3k.

As for focus - well 'Solo Cinema' you are chasing light most of the time - often Id get a look by turning off all lights and getting the subject by a window as key - I often end up around 3.5-2.5.

My experience with (6k) stills says if the eyelash is sharp the eye is out - I am a fan of tight framing

Of course Ive got all the tricks up my sleeve for focus, like using my EX1 (!) but that is not the bar I set for a $16g camera.

IMO a load of C100 shooters use 17-55 at 5.6 and then, well they manage to create the look of the EX1 and get s*%t ergonomics - masterful!

--

Here is a still image shot on a Mamiya MFDB - wonderful file but it is out of focus - partly why I binned MF stills kit and went to AF DSLR for photo work because the pictures were better even if the files were marginally worse.
http://www.sammorganmoore.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/cl2.jpg

The set is actually a fine example of the feel Id like to get on my own solo 'video' shoots..
http://www.sammorganmoore.com/a-family-affair/

S
 
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cuervo said:
Mitch,
I have a question re: your note '4' on Sam's spreadsheet. Note '4' says; "F5 Prores from Sony is only for HD, not 4K. Better/cheaper to buy O7Q for F5". How does the O7Q acquire 4k from the F5?. RAW output is not available. Can the O7Q take the(newly licensed) 422, 10/12 bit, 4K signal available from the SDI port of the F5 and convert/record to ProRes 4k?
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Yes, that is exactly what we will do. On first release of 4K ProRes it will be via 4x SDI feeds, but we will soon also make it work for 2x 3G-SDI feeds. he F5/F55 will accept either, as will the Panasonic GH-4 via the YAGH base.
 
starcentral said:
Those interviews with Boyle, Bennett and Charters are pretty good. They go on to say 4K isn't 4K anyway and that once they add their stocking behind lens and diffusion in front it's not going to be 4K anyway. One of the DP's (I forget which one) says he likes 4K for reframing, stabilizing, etc.. but delivery is always 2K anyways, etc..
Click to expand...

I really enjoyed watching this conversation. The thing that struck me most was their view that dynamic range and color are way more important than sharpness. I totally agree with this.
 
@Mitch - can you clarify if F55 can output 4K 4096x2160 over SDI, or only UHD? (Guess I could look in my manual but lazy). If so I suspect FS7 will eventually also provide 1.9 over SDI.

@skimmel - it was good to watch. I like the comment about using black fill more than ever, as well as lighting manufacturers scared about the new wave of very clean high ISO shooting capable cameras.. M18's on a ladder to light up street night scene and some LED panels with batteries. Interesting to think "Hollywood" is so much on the cheap when they would like everyone to think otherwise...
 
starcentral said:
@Mitch - can you clarify if F55 can output 4K 4096x2160 over SDI, or only UHD? (Guess I could look in my manual but lazy). If so I suspect FS7 will eventually also provide 1.9 over SDI.

@skimmel - it was good to watch. I like the comment about using black fill more than ever, as well as lighting manufacturers scared about the new wave of very clean high ISO shooting capable cameras.. M18's on a ladder to light up street night scene and some LED panels with batteries. Interesting to think "Hollywood" is so much on the cheap when they would like everyone to think otherwise...
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It can do either, just a simple menu setting. The Odyssey7Q will auto-detect what is being sent.
 
Last week, FS100 quirky kit-lens, window light, straight out of cam (AVCHD):

FS100_doc01.jpg



Does it mean the FS100 is great and that I will never need something better?
Maybe...

In the end, I want the FS7 for the formfactor (which is very close to what I did with the FS100)
and the better codec/10bit alone. 4k, NDs, handgrip are a welcome plus that makes my decision
even easier.

YMMV...
 
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