New RED camera?

GaryinCalifornia said:
Yes people like Arri/Red... heck if I could afford an Alexa... that's the camera for me... s

But in the end... if you make a great film... the buyer's not going to say hey you didn't shoot on a Red or an Arri so we're not going to buy your film even if we think we'll make big money off of it...

Just use the tool you have and make it look as good as possible with a good story... good acting... good production values and good sound...
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I, and I'd bet the others, were talking about the impression you make on people when you show your camera.

None of this matters when you're evaluating finished work, but you're perceived differently if you have a fairly exclusive camera. It's purely cultural.

It works on civilians, too. Try walking down the street with a T2i, then put it away and walk for a bit with a Digital Bolex, then try the same with a C300. You'd be classified as 3 different types of shooters by people who have never seen your work, right?

Hell it even works on other pros; if someone walks in with an F55, it's a safe bet they're serious and almost certainly making their money from video work, which then implies they're decent at it. None of which you automatically assume if you are walking with that T2i, right? I'm not saying it should be this way, but it is what it is...

Btw I'm not ripping into T2i owners; I was one myself and made stuff I'm still proud of on it...
 
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You are exactly right certain cameras bring a certain cache to the field. Even people that only know a little about cameras they know the C100/300, they know RED and they automatically think you are serious. BUT a lot of the producers I work with I guess they are just savvy because they just want the darn picture to look good. But you are right I know when I see a certain level of camera I assume that person is a certain level of shooter. I know shouldn't because I have seen people with very expensive cameras that have no idea what they are doing. That being said having a certain camera does get you in the door and I imagine having a Raven will get you in the same doors a C100/300 or Sony FS7 will.
 
DLD said:
"5:1 compression is roughly ProRes 4:2:2. URSA Mini 4K and URSA Mini 4.6K is 4:4:4"
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This is incorrect Dragon 5.1 compression is superior to MX also because it is Redraw it is 16bit & not 8/10 bit.

There is also the small issue of DR...... Ursa mini 15 stops , Dragon ( supposed ) 16 stops .

The UI. Has undergone a revolution recently with "Foolcontrol" enabling simple fast, intelligent wifi control and accurate electronics focus pulls with a tablet , smart phone.

P.s. These sensors are already out in the field just ask any dragon owner to shoot 4k and that's what you'll get.
 
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Personally, I think cameras in this price range seem best suited for indie filmmakers maxing out their credit cards to shoot their first feature. Which is how I feel about the URSA Mini.

Otherwise something like a C100mkII is perfectly fine for lower end corporate client work where they don't even ask what camera is being used, they just want something that looks nice on youtube. Based on what the rest of you have said, sounds like you need to break out the big guns for the bigger productions to impress the client.
 
BlackWolf said:
Beats any camera out there for the price.
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I don't understand why people make such comments without ever using, or seeing the camera and what it can do. Just post a link to any resources backing your statement. I highly doubt you or anyone else at this time can make such a bold claim without ever conducting a single comparison test.
 
Fahnon said:
I, and I'd bet the others, were talking about the impression you make on people when you show your camera.

None of this matters when you're evaluating finished work, but you're perceived differently if you have a fairly exclusive camera. It's purely cultural.

It works on civilians, too. Try walking down the street with a T2i, then put it away and walk for a bit with a Digital Bolex, then try the same with a C300. You'd be classified as 3 different types of shooters by people who have never seen your work, right?

Hell it even works on other pros; if someone walks in with an F55, it's a safe bet they're serious and almost certainly making their money from video work, which then implies you're decent at it. None of which you automatically assume if you are walking with that T2i, right. I'm not saying it should be this way, but it is what it is...

Btw I'm not ripping into T2i owners; I was one myself and made stuff I'm still proud of on it...
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True... but for myself... I'm moving from producer for hire to director of my own scripts now... just want something simple that shoots 4k 24p, 60p and 120p I'd be really happy
:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
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Paul schefz said:
from my own experience i can also tell you that in many cases showing up with a scarlet was almost worse then showing up with X,Y,Z....the raven won't get anyone excited.....dragon yes, raven, no....
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I dunno, but I think that the only camera to own that can really push you into the high end jobs and doesn't cost $60k is Amira. No Raven, Ursa Mini or FS7 can do that. Maybe F55 but I'm not sure about that.
 
maranfilms said:
I don't understand why people make such comments without ever using, or seeing the camera and what it can do. Just post a link to any resources backing your statement. I highly doubt you or anyone else at this time can make such a bold claim without ever conducting a single comparison test.
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Dragon has been out and shooting for 2 years and is capable of the specs Raven can shoot.

REDCODE has been out for 8 years and we all know what it is capable of.

Nothing here is new in terms of quality of footage. Check it out for yourself. We all know what its going to look like. And if you have the talent it is going to look fantastic.
 
William_Robinette said:
Dragon has been out and shooting for 2 years and is capable of the specs Raven can shoot.

REDCODE has been out for 8 years and we all know what it is capable of.

Nothing here is new in terms of quality of footage. Check it out for yourself. We all know what its going to look like. And if you have the talent it is going to look fantastic.
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actually we don't know anything about this camera....we do know that the sensor and color tech is probably based on the dragon sensor but this is quite a bit smaller and the on board electronics will be way below what dragon has....
 
Paul schefz said:
actually we don't know anything about this camera....we do know that the sensor and color tech is probably based on the dragon sensor [snip]
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Well, Paul we actually do. From the president of the company himself:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136117-4K4ALL&p=1546507&viewfull=1#post1546507
it is a real Dragon sensor with real Dragon Pixels. So 20.48mm wide, a bit shy of Academy 35mm and APS-C.
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136117-4K4ALL&p=1546521&viewfull=1#post1546521
The "box" is smaller than the Scarlet Dragon but as you can see from the photos it is the same size as Weapon, so all the DSMC² ( i.e. Weapon ) modules will work.

And Raven is the lightest camera we have ever made....
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136117-4K4ALL&p=1546532&viewfull=1#post1546532
1442994788.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136117-4K4ALL&p=1546555&viewfull=1#post1546555
The Raven doesn't replace Scarlet, It's a new category in our line up. Raven is a younger, hungrier, more "spirited" member of the RED family with a bit of a chip on his shoulder ready to take on the entire sub-$10k market with images that you will be incredibly proud of.
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So yeah, we know quite a bit. Forgive me for not quoting every bit of info available but as was already reported in this thread, it is a 4k digital cinema camera capable of 120fps and recording to REDCODE which is a known and widely adopted capture and editing format. It will be available to shoot for $10,000. It is compatible with the newest modules from RED and their approved third party vendors. It is made of metal. It has microphones. It has wireless capability and control available from a smartphone. The sensor has been out in the wild for two years. The codec has been out in the wild for 8 years at least.

Paul schefz said:
but this is quite a bit smaller and the on board electronics will be way below what dragon has....
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As stated above it is the same size as the WEAPON body so we know what that means:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?133976-RED-WEAPON-DIMENSIONAL-DRAWINGS
1436521291.jpg

To the second bit, DRAGON is a sensor and it has no "onboard electronics". If you are referring to the body throughput (which is different for every model) you are correct in that we do not know what they are, but to say they will be "way below what dragon has" in addition to being nonsensical is frankly unknown. Everyone is patiently waiting on those specs.

Look, I understand that info is flying around like a bat out of hell and it is difficult to keep up with everything. But if we are going to weigh-in in an attempt to have an intelligent conversation can we at least put a little bit of effort in. Can we please try and to a little fact-checking?

Like or dislike RED and everything that comes along with the company, facts are facts. Let's get them right. It's a pretty easy thing to do.
 
William_Robinette said:
Like or dislike RED and everything that comes along with the company, facts are facts. Let's get them right. It's a pretty easy thing to do.
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we do know that it is a smaller version of dragon and so it should perform like a dragon when cropped to 4K...except that everything but the sensor will be different in this raven...otherwise it would not be 20% of the price....
i do know from my own experience that scarlet MX was nothing like epic MX....mostly because it wasn't able to process data in the same way...red raw/redcode is great...but if you turn up the compression it gets mush like everything else....
i don't fall into the trap of saying that the ursa mini 4.6 will blow away the raven....because we just don't know and just looking at specs does not help.....
and nobody has seen a raven or any footage of it yet, so you can fact-check what you want...there is not much to check yet and in the end it comes down to IQ and if you really believe that this will be in the same league as dragon you are dreaming.....this will be the HD dragon.....
 
Paul schefz said:
we do know that it is a smaller version of dragon and so it should perform like a dragon when cropped to 4K...except that everything but the sensor will be different in this raven...otherwise it would not be 20% of the price....
i do know from my own experience that scarlet MX was nothing like epic MX....mostly because it wasn't able to process data in the same way...red raw/redcode is great...but if you turn up the compression it gets mush like everything else....
i don't fall into the trap of saying that the ursa mini 4.6 will blow away the raven....because we just don't know and just looking at specs does not help.....
and nobody has seen a raven or any footage of it yet, so you can fact-check what you want...there is not much to check yet and in the end it comes down to IQ and if you really believe that this will be in the same league as dragon you are dreaming.....this will be the HD dragon.....
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Paul, it would help massively if you would use paragraphs and sentences and drop the ellipsis as I might be able to pice together what you are trying to say better. Apologies if English isn't your first language.

It is a different physical dimension from the full 6k DRAGON sensor that is correct. And it is possible that it will not have all the advancements that the WEAPON DRAGON Magnesium/CF body has. But being that is is a DRAGON sensor in a WEAPON body I reasonably estimate that the performance will be exactly the same at equivalent resolutions and compression ratios.

I personally have shot hundreds of hours with Scarlet and Epic MX sensors side by side and (again) at equivalent resolutions and compression ratios I have found them indistinguishable. I would be very interested in seeing your particular problems with Scarlet compared to Epic under the same conditions. Care to share some r3d files?

Again, I think the league this camera will play in is very much the "DRAGON" league as it has a DRAGON sensor. I don't know what a "HD dragon" is and can't really talk to that point. Again, I'll I have tried to do is state facts.

I'll admit, it is entirely possible that RED, with the release of this camera, will completely abandon everything they have done and every advancement they have made with their cameras, compression, and imaging technology in order to dupe people into buying their product while banking on their current good name. But I seem to have run out of tinfoil, so I'll leave that idea for another day.
 
Paul schefz said:
we do know that it is a smaller version of dragon
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No, it looks like it is a Dragon, limited to 4K.

The Dragon is 30.7 x 15.8 mm and 6,144 x 3,160 pixels. That's 0.005 millimeters per pixel (hold on, the math is almost over). A 4,096-by-2,160-pixel crop of the Dragon sensor, therefore, would be 20.48 x 10.8 mm, which is the size quoted for the Raven.
 
William_Robinette said:
Paul, it would help massively if you would use paragraphs and sentences and drop the ellipsis as I might be able to pice together what you are trying to say better. Apologies if English isn't your first language.

It is a different physical dimension from the full 6k DRAGON sensor that is correct. And it is possible that it will not have all the advancements that the WEAPON DRAGON Magnesium/CF body has. But being that is is a DRAGON sensor in a WEAPON body I reasonably estimate that the performance will be exactly the same at equivalent resolutions and compression ratios.

I personally have shot hundreds of hours with Scarlet and Epic MX sensors side by side and (again) at equivalent resolutions and compression ratios I have found them indistinguishable. I would be very interested in seeing your particular problems with Scarlet compared to Epic under the same conditions. Care to share some r3d files?

Again, I think the league this camera will play in is very much the "DRAGON" league as it has a DRAGON sensor. I don't know what a "HD dragon" is and can't really talk to that point. Again, I'll I have tried to do is state facts.

I'll admit, it is entirely possible that RED, with the release of this camera, will completely abandon everything they have done and every advancement they have made with their cameras, compression, and imaging technology in order to dupe people into buying their product while banking on their current good name. But I seem to have run out of tinfoil, so I'll leave that idea for another day.
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Is this reduser?
seriously: right now neither you nor I know what the files will look like
and we also don't know when we will actually know since I doubt the camera will ship this Friday.....
as far as scarlet and epic go, I have owned them both and scarlet is at its best compression settings (and at 24fps) what I would consider maybe a 3k camera.....perfect for HD delivery.....just like epic is a true 4K camera....

i am sorry if I can't get excited about the camera....after being in the red system for years I am a little too familiar with the promises and the seemingly multiple realities....
 
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